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    Kelvin Herrera

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    Son of Ron
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    Kelvin Herrera

    Post by Son of Ron on Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:57 pm

    OUR White Sox New closer!!!!!!


    Between him and Colome and anything from Nate Jones and/or Zach Burdi....


    Looks like the opponents of OUR White Sox will be playing 6 inning games because this bullpen looks lights out
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:31 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:OUR White Sox New closer!!!!!!


    Between him and Colome and anything from Nate Jones and/or Zach Burdi....


    Looks like the opponents of OUR White Sox will be playing 6 inning games because this bullpen looks lights out

    Now all the Sox have to do is score enough runs for these bullpen aces to have leads to protect. 
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:41 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:OUR White Sox New closer!!!!!!
    Between him and Colome and anything from Nate Jones and/or Zach Burdi....
    Looks like the opponents of OUR White Sox will be playing 6 inning games because this bullpen looks lights out


    Nothing particularly wrong with this signing  since a) Herrera could be held onto until 2021 with a vesting option, b) he's only 29 years old  and c) Sox didn't have to give up anybody to get him.  None of those three things were true of the Colome acquisition which now looks like a superfluous luxury for a team that lost 100 games last year and is under some delusion that having a good setup/Closer combination will instantly transform them into a contender.  
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    Son of Ron
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by Son of Ron on Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:57 pm

    THE KARK NEVER SAID IT MADE THEM A CONTENDER!!!!


    AND WTF IS THIS A LUXURY?!?!?!?!?


    FINDING A TOP NOTCH LEADOFF HITTER WOULDN'T BE A LUZURY....
    FINDING A 300/400/500 CLEANUP HITTER WOULDN'T BE A LUXURY....
    ONE OF THESE KID PITCHERS TURNING INTO TOM SEAVER WOULDN'T BE A LUXURY....


    SO WTF IS A TOP NOTCH BULLPEN A LUXURY?!?!?!?!


    IF THE POINT IS TO BUILD A CHAMPION, YOU HAVE TO LAY THE FIRST BRICK SOMEWHERE.  SO WHY NOT THE BULLPEN?!?!?!


    ITS NOT LIKE THIS SIGNING TO PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING BRYCE HARPER.  THAT WILL BE THE FAULT OF THE CHEAP OWNER THAT NIXED THE 10 YEAR CONTRACT
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:34 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:THE KARK NEVER SAID IT MADE THEM A CONTENDER!!!!
    AND WTF IS THIS A LUXURY?!?!?!?!?
    FINDING A TOP NOTCH LEADOFF HITTER WOULDN'T BE A LUZURY....
    FINDING A 300/400/500 CLEANUP HITTER WOULDN'T BE A LUXURY....
    ONE OF THESE KID PITCHERS TURNING INTO TOM SEAVER WOULDN'T BE A LUXURY....
    SO WTF IS A TOP NOTCH BULLPEN A LUXURY?!?!?!?!
    IF THE POINT IS TO BUILD A CHAMPION, YOU HAVE TO LAY THE FIRST BRICK SOMEWHERE.  SO WHY NOT THE BULLPEN?!?!?!
    ITS NOT LIKE THIS SIGNING TO PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING BRYCE HARPER.  THAT WILL BE THE FAULT OF THE CHEAP OWNER THAT NIXED THE 10 YEAR CONTRACT

    I never said YOU were claiming this made the Sox a contender.  I said Sox Mgmt.
    is making decisions typical of win-now teams  - spending a combined $ 17 million on a 
    setup guy with only two years of team control and a Closer with maybe three if 
    he manages to pitch enough IP in 19-20 to qualify for his option year.  Which may not
    happen considering the foot problems he had at the end of 2018. 

    Teams that plan on winning 90 + games NEED Closers and Setup guys who can nail down
    those incremental 5-6 wins that get them into the playoffs.   Teams that were 30 games
    out of the playoffs last year need to work on building themselves for the future, instead 
    of 5-6 more wins this year.  Especially since relief pitching was the LEAST of the Sox's 
    problems in 2018 - (10th best in majors).  Meanwhile, they were 30th in starting pitching, 
    22nd in offense and 28th in fielding defense.   So going from 10th best to 4th best in 
    relief pitching (if that's what Colome/Herrera do) is an unnecessary luxury as long as
    the other problems remain unsolved.

    Other reason it's a luxury is that relief pitchers are the easiest commodity to develop on a 
    home-grown basis. Grooming guys with 2 good pitches who can go 1-2 IP is not rocket 
    science particularly when there is no emergency to have those guys in full form in 2019.
    They are a helluva lot easier to groom than starters who have to have 3-4 pitches 
    and go 6-7 IP a game. Or finding a leadoff hitter.   Or an OFer who can both hit and 
    catch the ball.   

    If the Sox think they've accomplished something with the Colome/Herrera tandem, 
    hip-hooray for them.  Since 2005, however, this franchise has veered off course 
    so frequently with self-delusional moves that this offseason frankly comes as 
    no surprise.
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    Son of Ron
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by Son of Ron on Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:42 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:THE KARK NEVER SAID IT MADE THEM A CONTENDER!!!!
    AND WTF IS THIS A LUXURY?!?!?!?!?
    FINDING A TOP NOTCH LEADOFF HITTER WOULDN'T BE A LUZURY....
    FINDING A 300/400/500 CLEANUP HITTER WOULDN'T BE A LUXURY....
    ONE OF THESE KID PITCHERS TURNING INTO TOM SEAVER WOULDN'T BE A LUXURY....
    SO WTF IS A TOP NOTCH BULLPEN A LUXURY?!?!?!?!
    IF THE POINT IS TO BUILD A CHAMPION, YOU HAVE TO LAY THE FIRST BRICK SOMEWHERE.  SO WHY NOT THE BULLPEN?!?!?!
    ITS NOT LIKE THIS SIGNING TO PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING BRYCE HARPER.  THAT WILL BE THE FAULT OF THE CHEAP OWNER THAT NIXED THE 10 YEAR CONTRACT

    I never said YOU were claiming this made the Sox a contender.  I said Sox Mgmt.
    is making decisions typical of win-now teams  - spending a combined $ 17 million on a 
    setup guy with only two years of team control and a Closer with maybe three if 
    he manages to pitch enough IP in 19-20 to qualify for his option year.  Which may not
    happen considering the foot problems he had at the end of 2018. 

    IT'S ONLY MONEY

    Teams that plan on winning 90 + games NEED Closers and Setup guys who can nail down
    those incremental 5-6 wins that get them into the playoffs.   Teams that were 30 games
    out of the playoffs last year need to work on building themselves for the future, instead 
    of 5-6 more wins this year.

    FALSE CHOICE

    Especially since relief pitching was the LEAST of the Sox's 
    problems in 2018 - (10th best in majors).

    AND WEREN'T THE KEY GUYS DUMPED IN JULY?

    Meanwhile, they were 30th in starting pitching, 
    22nd in offense and 28th in fielding defense.   So going from 10th best to 4th best in 
    relief pitching (if that's what Colome/Herrera do) is an unnecessary luxury as long as
    the other problems remain unsolved.

    AGAIN, FALSE CHOICE.  COLOME AND HERRERA TAKE NOTHING AWAY FROM THE OTHER AREAS

    Other reason it's a luxury is that relief pitchers are the easiest commodity to develop on a 
    home-grown basis.

    SURE IT IS

    Grooming guys with 2 good pitches who can go 1-2 IP is not rocket 
    science particularly when there is no emergency to have those guys in full form in 2019.
    They are a helluva lot easier to groom than starters who have to have 3-4 pitches 
    and go 6-7 IP a game. Or finding a leadoff hitter.   Or an OFer who can both hit and 
    catch the ball.   

    AGAIN, FALSE CHOICE.  COLOME AND HERRERA DOES NOT PREVENT GROOMING ELSEWHERE

    If the Sox think they've accomplished something with the Colome/Herrera tandem, 
    hip-hooray for them.  Since 2005, however, this franchise has veered off course 
    so frequently with self-delusional moves that this offseason frankly comes as 
    no surprise.

    HERE'S THE MAJOR FLAW IN YOUR LOGIC.  YOU ASSUME OUR 2019 WHITE SOX ARE GOING TO SUCK SO THAT JUSTIFIES IGNORING 20% OF THE TEAM.  BUT BY IGNORING 20% OF THE TEAM, YOU GUARENTEE YOU ARE GOING TO SUCK.  I DO NOT BELIEVE THE FALSE PREMISE THAT QUALITY RELIEVERS ARE AN UNNECESSARY LUXURY ON A BAD TEAM.  STARTERS ARE NOW EXPECTED TO LAST ONLY 6 INNING.  SO YOU NEED A GOOD BULLPEN TO PROTECT THE YOUNG KIDS IN THE ROTATION

    ANOTHER THING.  YOU CAN'T PREDICT WHEN EVERYTHING COMES TOGETHER SO WHY UNNECESSARILY HANDICAP YOURSELF.  IF AND WHEN OUR WHITE SOX DO FINALLY COMPETE FOR REAL, I DOUBT IS WILL 25 GUYS UNDER 27 THAT OUR WHITE SOX EITHER DRAFTED OR ACQUIRED WHILE STILL PROSPECTS.  YOU ARE GOING TO NEED SOME VETS

    FINALLY, YOU COMPLETE OVERRATE OMAR NARVARZ.  HE WILL NEVER EVER BE MISSED
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:44 pm

    HERE'S THE MAJOR FLAW IN YOUR LOGIC.  YOU ASSUME OUR 2019 WHITE SOX ARE GOING TO SUCK SO THAT JUSTIFIES IGNORING 20% OF THE TEAM.  BUT BY IGNORING 20% OF THE TEAM, YOU GUARENTEE YOU ARE GOING TO SUCK.  I DO NOT BELIEVE THE FALSE PREMISE THAT QUALITY RELIEVERS ARE AN UNNECESSARY LUXURY ON A BAD TEAM.  STARTERS ARE NOW EXPECTED TO LAST ONLY 6 INNING.  SO YOU NEED A GOOD BULLPEN TO PROTECT THE YOUNG KIDS IN THE ROTATION

    ANOTHER THING.  YOU CAN'T PREDICT WHEN EVERYTHING COMES TOGETHER SO WHY UNNECESSARILY HANDICAP YOURSELF.  IF AND WHEN OUR WHITE SOX DO FINALLY COMPETE FOR REAL, I DOUBT IS WILL 25 GUYS UNDER 27 THAT OUR WHITE SOX EITHER DRAFTED OR ACQUIRED WHILE STILL PROSPECTS.  YOU ARE GOING TO NEED SOME VETS
    FINALLY, YOU COMPLETE OVERRATE OMAR NARVARZ.  HE WILL NEVER EVER BE MISSED  >>
    For the record, I saw nothing wrong with the Herrera pickup.  He is 29, could be under Sox control in 2020 and 2021 (provided he throws enough IP) and he didn't cost the Sox any player in trade. And yes, the Sox could use relievers to help ease the burden on starters.  What I consider a "luxury" is having BOTH he and Colome on a team that is unlikely to be leading enough games in the 8th inning to make good use of a "shutdown" tandem, assuming that's what Colome-Herrera would be.   If a Colome type shutdown guy (Burdi, Frye, etc) were already in the Sox system, that would be great.  But I see no need to go out and trade for such a vet in 2019.  That could easily have been a 2020 acquisition if no one materialized for that role in-house this year. 

    As to Narvaez, I am not expecting him to be more than a league average Catcher at best or a decent backup at worst.   He can get on base due to his high BB rate, and some power started to materialize this past year.  His defense needs work but that may improve over time . While he isn't a tremendous loss neither should he have been viewed as a dime a dozen throwaway as decent Catchers do not grow on trees and Collins' future is far from assured. 

    I do see some logic to trading a guy coming off a career year like Narvaez's 2018
    but it makes more sense in my view to trade him for a 24-25 year old guy who has power and will be with the org for another 6-8 years instead of a 30 year old vet reliever who's only got 2 years of team control.  This is the kind of trade the Cubs  Indians, Dodgers, Red Sox, Astros or other 2019 win-now team would make.  For the Sox to believe that they've vaulted to that level already is self-delusion.
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    Son of Ron
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by Son of Ron on Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:59 pm

    I sure Colome and Herrera will be flipped this summer if things don't go according to plan.
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    Son of Ron
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by Son of Ron on Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:13 pm

    I do see some logic to trading a guy coming off a career year like Narvaez's 2018
    but it makes more sense in my view to trade him for a 24-25 year old guy who has power and will be with the org for another 6-8 years 


    ***********************


    So OUR White Sox should have traded Narvaez for a player that hits better than he does.


    Why don't I see team lining up to make that deal.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:55 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:I sure Colome and Herrera will be flipped this summer if things don't go according to plan.

    No doubt but what kind of return can be expected considering the midseason deals for relievers the Sox did in last few years (Duke for Tilson, Soria for unknowns Medeiros and Perez, Schwarzak for Cordell, Jennings for Casey Gillaspie) ?  Soria was the Sox closer last year.  Colome or Herrera might be more established and thus more could be had but how much more ?  Herrera is also an injury risk.
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    Son of Ron
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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

    Post by Son of Ron on Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:11 pm

    Colome, Herrera, and Nova for Jo Adell to help the Angels get over the hump

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    Re: Kelvin Herrera

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