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    rmapasad
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    A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:22 pm

    According to Mark Feinsand of MLB.com, the White Sox are "actively trying" to trade Avisail Garcia.  The sense is that the White Sox could non-tender Garcia if they are unable to find a deal. The 27-year-old struggled through knee and hamstring injuries this past season while batting just .236/.281/.438 with 19 homers over 93 games. He underwent arthroscopic surgery on the knee last month. Garcia received a $6.7 million salary in 2018 and will get a raise in arbitration this winter, so interest could be limited.   >>


    Thank God the Sox weren't foolish enough to fall for his accidental good year in 2017 and ink him to some
    ridiculous 5-6 year extension.  Doesn't even look like a good bet to bring him back at $ 7 mil for next year.  Clearly Jiminez is ready to take over RF anytime and 
    Palko could play that spot for the 6 weeks or so the Sox need to keep Jiminez in AAA next year to stall his free agent clock.  
    Garcia's only plus last year was HR power but that was cancelled out by regressions in BA, plate discipline, defense and health.  It's not like it will
    only cost the Sox $ 3 mil to give him one more fling like two years ago.  
    Non-tendering seems to finally make sense now.
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    Son of Ron
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:30 pm

    How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?


    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?


    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:34 am

    The funny thing about Garcia is that he checks off a lot of the boxes of a good quad A gamble.


    Plus its not like the 2018 White Sox were overwhelming anybody with offense.  And this we have Jiminez coming up is so Chicago.  The team lost 100 games.  So there are plenty of openings for both.  DH, LF maybe even 1B.


    That said, from a fiscal stand point, maybe its best to non tender and gamble that you can resign Garcia on the cheap come the middle of January.  Especially since he is coming off surgery.  Arbitration to the DL is a road I would not want to travel
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:50 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by alohafri on Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:30 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:39 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:The funny thing about Garcia is that he checks off a lot of the boxes of a good quad A gamble.
    Plus its not like the 2018 White Sox were overwhelming anybody with offense.  And this we have Jiminez coming up is so Chicago.  The team lost 100 games.  So there are plenty of openings for both.  DH, LF maybe even 1B.
    That said, from a fiscal stand point, maybe its best to non tender and gamble that you can resign Garcia on the cheap come the middle of January.  Especially since he is coming off surgery.  Arbitration to the DL is a road I would not want to travel

    If Garcia could swat 30-35 HR's, hit .275-.280 and walk enough to manage a .330-.340 OBP he'd be well worth hanging onto at $ 7.5 million for 2019 and beyond.  But he's never done all three of these things in one season (only hit for 30-35 HR power last year, only hit for average in 2017 and only had a decent BB rate in 2016).   

    So you have this 28 year old with "potential" but a history of spotty and unreliable performance, poor plate discipline, suspect health and subpar defense who will be a free agent in 2020.   Tend to agree that the best road would be to non-tender, see if they can then re-sign him to $ 4 mil deal for '19 and offer some options for '20 and '21 ($ 10 / $ 12 mi) with nominal buyouts.  After cratering last year, Avi's bargaining power now is back down to almost pre-2017 levels.  
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:45 pm

    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.

    You're probably right.  Let me re-state "Jiminez legitimately feels aggrieved but is not able to do anything about it."  
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:54 pm

    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.


    Actually, he does.  Kris Bryant is filing a similiar grievance.  So is some other player.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:56 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:The funny thing about Garcia is that he checks off a lot of the boxes of a good quad A gamble.
    Plus its not like the 2018 White Sox were overwhelming anybody with offense.  And this we have Jiminez coming up is so Chicago.  The team lost 100 games.  So there are plenty of openings for both.  DH, LF maybe even 1B.
    That said, from a fiscal stand point, maybe its best to non tender and gamble that you can resign Garcia on the cheap come the middle of January.  Especially since he is coming off surgery.  Arbitration to the DL is a road I would not want to travel

    If Garcia could swat 30-35 HR's, hit .275-.280 and walk enough to manage a .330-.340 OBP he'd be well worth hanging onto at $ 7.5 million for 2019 and beyond.  But he's never done all three of these things in one season (only hit for 30-35 HR power last year, only hit for average in 2017 and only had a decent BB rate in 2016).   

    So you have this 28 year old with "potential" but a history of spotty and unreliable performance, poor plate discipline, suspect health and subpar defense who will be a free agent in 2020.   Tend to agree that the best road would be to non-tender, see if they can then re-sign him to $ 4 mil deal for '19 and offer some options for '20 and '21 ($ 10 / $ 12 mi) with nominal buyouts.  After cratering last year, Avi's bargaining power now is back down to almost pre-2017 levels.  



    $4mil?!?!?!?!


    I was thinking minor league deal.  Especially if it looks like he starts the year on the DL
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:55 pm

    $4mil?!?!?!?!  I was thinking minor league deal.  Especially if it looks like he starts the year on the DL  >>
    I think he can get some guaranteed money based on his 2017 season and 19 HR's in 92 games in 2018.  Plus his agent will milk the excuse of his injuries last year and claim the recent knee surgery has him fixed up and ready to go.  Someone will buy into that story. 
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:28 am

    A change of scenery might be what is best for Garcia

    Like an .org that won’t tell him to forget about walks after doubling his walk rate in the 2nd half of 2017
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by alohafri on Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:42 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.

    You're probably right.  Let me re-state "Jiminez legitimately feels aggrieved but is not able to do anything about it."  

    Yes, that's probably correct. But time heals all wounds...so does winning.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:11 am

    I believe the St Louis Cardinal were following the rules when they traded Curt Flood.


    Every rule has its exceptions.  Even THOU SHALT NOT KILL has a loophole for self defense.


    But let's hope OUR White Sox mindless follow the "Rules is the Rules" mantra.  Maybe they can keep Jiminez on the Farm until All-Star break.  That not only gives them another free agency year, but an arbitration year as well.  And if OUR 2019 White Sox suck like the 2018 version, why not wait until May of 2020 for Jiminez to make his debut?  Why waste valuable free agency years on teams that suck?
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:21 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.

    You're probably right.  Let me re-state "Jiminez legitimately feels aggrieved but is not able to do anything about it."  


    Jiminez can certainly do something about it.  Like not sign the classic Reinsdorf contract where security is purchased for 50cents on the dollar.  Like the contract Sale signed that elevated his trade value sky high.


    Under the "Rules is the Rules" mantra, Jiminez has every right to fight the team for every penny come arbitration time and tell these cheap ass SOB's that cheated him and the fans last September to go "F" themselves come free agency time.  Jiminez looks like the rare special player.  How about figuring out how to keep him here for what is hopefully a 20 year career.  Instead of trying to nickel and dime him into a 7 year term at the Reinsdorf house of cheapness and mediocracy.


    Just love the penny wise, pound foolish nonsense of "The Rules are the Rules"
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by alohafri on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:46 am

    Bryant's grievance, Jiminez's potential grievance, are not with their respective teams. They are with the process and the league rules. Once again, both the Cubs and the White Sox were operating within the current rules of the game. This idea that professional ballplayers are going to have tantrums like a six year old who is told he can't have his pudding until he eats his meat is asinine. 
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:28 am

    This is millions of dollars, not a bowl of pudding.  So your analogy is asinine.


    When Ryan Cordell is brought up on Sept 1 and Jiminez is told not to bother booking his flight to Chicago until Easter Sunday of 2019, then the man is being screwed with.


    PS, ordering Garcia to have surgery in early August and calling up Jiminez to replace him is also operating within the rules.


    PSS, I would say the grievance IS with the team.  Much like when a player is benched in order to avoid some incentive clause bonus
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by alohafri on Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:53 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:This is millions of dollars, not a bowl of pudding.  So your analogy is asinine.


    When Ryan Cordell is brought up on Sept 1 and Jiminez is told not to bother booking his flight to Chicago until Easter Sunday of 2019, then the man is being screwed with.


    PS, ordering Garcia to have surgery in early August and calling up Jiminez to replace him is also operating within the rules.


    PSS, I would say the grievance IS with the team.  Much like when a player is benched in order to avoid some incentive clause bonus

    Your comparison is incorrect. There is no major league agreement with the players' union about benching someone to avoid some incentive clause. There is one about call ups for major league service time.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:58 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.

    You're probably right.  Let me re-state "Jiminez legitimately feels aggrieved but is not able to do anything about it."  


    Jiminez can certainly do something about it.  Like not sign the classic Reinsdorf contract where security is purchased for 50cents on the dollar.  Like the contract Sale signed that elevated his trade value sky high.


    Under the "Rules is the Rules" mantra, Jiminez has every right to fight the team for every penny come arbitration time and tell these cheap ass SOB's that cheated him and the fans last September to go "F" themselves come free agency time.  Jiminez looks like the rare special player.  How about figuring out how to keep him here for what is hopefully a 20 year career.  Instead of trying to nickel and dime him into a 7 year term at the Reinsdorf house of cheapness and mediocracy.


    Just love the penny wise, pound foolish nonsense of "The Rules are the Rules"


    Even if the Sox hadn't fucked with Jiminez, would his agent agree to an Anderson/Eaton type deal which gives Sox not only discounts on his arb years but options on first two years of his free agency ?  I doubt it.  If Jiminez is as good as advertised, it should go more like Trout's extension with Angels. Meaning Reinsdorf will have to pay up. Trout gave up three free agent years but he got a guaranteed $ 100 million for those 3 seasons. If and when such time comes, IMO, it's a business decision for Eloy and his agent- do the Sox offer enough guaranteed money to give up some free agent years ? Sox's shenanigans back in 2018 might matter some but actual $$ on the table will probably matter a lot more by then.  
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:39 pm

    alohafri wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:This is millions of dollars, not a bowl of pudding.  So your analogy is asinine.


    When Ryan Cordell is brought up on Sept 1 and Jiminez is told not to bother booking his flight to Chicago until Easter Sunday of 2019, then the man is being screwed with.


    PS, ordering Garcia to have surgery in early August and calling up Jiminez to replace him is also operating within the rules.


    PSS, I would say the grievance IS with the team.  Much like when a player is benched in order to avoid some incentive clause bonus

    Your comparison is incorrect. There is no major league agreement with the players' union about benching someone to avoid some incentive clause. There is one about call ups for major league service time.


    Then let him stay in Charlotte until May of 2020.  White Sox have more question marks now than they did at the end of 2017.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:56 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Son of Ron wrote:How stupid was it to make Garcia play on that bum knee in August and September?
    And just why are the White Sox so willing to screw Jiminez on the service time clock when they had no problem bringing up Kopech in August?
    Gotta love an org that seems determine to piss off a player that just might rival Frank Thomas in hitting ability

    Yeah, Jiminez has a legit grievance.   

    Actually, he doesn't. The Sox are following the rules agreed upon by the players' union. If he grieves it, he will lose.

    You're probably right.  Let me re-state "Jiminez legitimately feels aggrieved but is not able to do anything about it."  


    Jiminez can certainly do something about it.  Like not sign the classic Reinsdorf contract where security is purchased for 50cents on the dollar.  Like the contract Sale signed that elevated his trade value sky high.


    Under the "Rules is the Rules" mantra, Jiminez has every right to fight the team for every penny come arbitration time and tell these cheap ass SOB's that cheated him and the fans last September to go "F" themselves come free agency time.  Jiminez looks like the rare special player.  How about figuring out how to keep him here for what is hopefully a 20 year career.  Instead of trying to nickel and dime him into a 7 year term at the Reinsdorf house of cheapness and mediocracy.


    Just love the penny wise, pound foolish nonsense of "The Rules are the Rules"


    Even if the Sox hadn't fucked with Jiminez, would his agent agree to an Anderson/Eaton type deal which gives Sox not only discounts on his arb years but options on first two years of his free agency ?  I doubt it.  If Jiminez is as good as advertised, it should go more like Trout's extension with Angels. Meaning Reinsdorf will have to pay up. Trout gave up three free agent years but he got a guaranteed $ 100 million for those 3 seasons. If and when such time comes, IMO, it's a business decision for Eloy and his agent- do the Sox offer enough guaranteed money to give up some free agent years ? Sox's shenanigans back in 2018 might matter some but actual $$ on the table will probably matter a lot more by then.  


    Thanks for letting us know you think it will be a business decision.


    For some reason, I thought it was going to be  RAH RAH GO TEAM FIGHT TEAM decision.  Don't laugh.  Tony Gwynn gave up millions just to be a live long Padre.  Who knows, maybe Jiminez signs the long term deal this spring, giving up years 7 & 8 just to be on the team on Opening Day because he loves US fans that much.  


    It will be interesting to see when Jiminez shows up to spring training.  If OUR White Sox really do have zero intentions on having him on the Opening Day roster, then I'd wait until the mandatory reporting date.  After all, the rules are the rules.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:03 pm

    If Jiminez is as good as advertised...


    ******************************




    He'll be traded in the summer of 2024 to jump start version 4 of the rebuild.




    You read it here first.  Eloy Jiminez will spend the prime of his career in Yankees pinstripes.  
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:33 pm

    Son of Ron wrote:
    rm wrote:
    Under the "Rules is the Rules" mantra, Jiminez has every right to fight the team for every penny come arbitration time and tell these cheap ass SOB's that cheated him and the fans last September to go "F" themselves come free agency time.  Jiminez looks like the rare special player.  How about figuring out how to keep him here for what is hopefully a 20 year career.  Instead of trying to nickel and dime him into a 7 year term at the Reinsdorf house of cheapness and mediocracy.


    Just love the penny wise, pound foolish nonsense of "The Rules are the Rules"


    Even if the Sox hadn't fucked with Jiminez, would his agent agree to an Anderson/Eaton type deal which gives Sox not only discounts on his arb years but options on first two years of his free agency ?  I doubt it.  If Jiminez is as good as advertised, it should go more like Trout's extension with Angels. Meaning Reinsdorf will have to pay up. Trout gave up three free agent years but he got a guaranteed $ 100 million for those 3 seasons. If and when such time comes, IMO, it's a business decision for Eloy and his agent- do the Sox offer enough guaranteed money to give up some free agent years ? Sox's shenanigans back in 2018 might matter some but actual $$ on the table will probably matter a lot more by then.  


    Thanks for letting us know you think it will be a business decision.


    For some reason, I thought it was going to be  RAH RAH GO TEAM FIGHT TEAM decision.  Don't laugh.  Tony Gwynn gave up millions just to be a live long Padre.  Who knows, maybe Jiminez signs the long term deal this spring, giving up years 7 & 8 just to be on the team on Opening Day because he loves US fans that much.  


    Tony Gwynn loyalties ain't happening anymore, obviously. But teams can get their stars to sign extensions that delay free agency until they're in their 30's.  Like the Astros did with Altuve, Dodgers with Kershaw, etc. Age 26-27 free agents like Machado and Harper are the exceptions.  Boras repping Harper meant it was unlikely he'd take an extension and he turned down Nats $ 300 MM, 10 year offer.
    Boras thinks he can get Harper close to $ 400 Million.  
    Suppose Jiminez hits .280 with 35 HR's in 2019 and looks like next Frank Thomas.  I'd estimate he'd probably earn $ 60 Mil + in his arb years (Harper got $21 mil in his last pre-FA year for example) and then be looking at $ 350-400 Million as a free agent in 2025 or 2026.    Sox would probably have to be in the $ 250 Million ballpark on an extension to keep him until 2028-2029.  Doubtful they'd shell out that much.
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:11 pm

    Suppose Jiminez hits .280 with 35 HR's in 2019 and looks like next Frank Thomas.  I'd estimate he'd probably earn $ 60 Mil + in his arb years (Harper got $21 mil in his last pre-FA year for example) and then be looking at $ 350-400 Million as a free agent in 2025 or 2026.    Sox would probably have to be in the $ 250 Million ballpark on an extension to keep him until 2028-2029.  Doubtful they'd shell out that much.>>
    Thought about this a bit more.   If Jiminez is ROY with gaudy numbers in 2019, his agent may get visions of a $ 400 + Million earning potential over the next 16 years.  So what money can the Sox put "in hand" to prevent him from waiting on that $ 400 Million + "in the bush" ? It might take $ 250 Mil in hand to make economic sense for Jiminez but it wouldn't make economic sense for the Sox. If his cost to the Sox is $ 60-65 Mill through 2024 by simply paying out increasing arb salaries, why would they want to throw an extra $ 170-190 million in to keep him only 3-4 more years beyond that ?  
    Best case scenario for the Sox might be a .240, 18 HR year from Jiminez in 2019 which might make he and his agent more amenable to a long-term deal at cheaper rates.  When his agent may not be so optimistic about Jiminez's haul by waiting 
    on what's "in the bush."
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by Son of Ron on Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:45 am

    Wow, and I thought I enjoyed listening to myself post...
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    Re: A familiar name

    Post by rmapasad on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:09 am

    Son of Ron wrote:Wow, and I thought I enjoyed listening to myself post...

    If Jiminez becomes the star everyone hopes, was just speculating what it might take to keep him longer than 6 years.

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