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    Tilson Called Up

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    rmapasad
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    Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Thu May 24, 2018 4:31 pm

    Since the great Leury Garcia just went on the DL, Sox called up Charlie Tilson.  It wasn't like Tilson did anything to deserve the callup with his .248/.288/.298 line at Charlotte.  Having both Tilson and Engel in the lineup is certain to give opposing pitchers some glee.  Today the "dynamic duo" went 0-6 with 3 punchouts.
    Of course the way Gioloto got shelled today it didn't matter much what the offense did or didn't do.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Fri May 25, 2018 7:10 am

    Tilson was the tallest midget available

    Injuries are just screwing ghis team

    PS I wonder what other injury Avisail might be hiding?
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Jack Brickhouse on Tue May 29, 2018 6:06 am

    Get to a fucking MEETING to discuss this important season with a guy like MURPH!!
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Tue May 29, 2018 4:00 pm

    Jack Brickhouse wrote:Get to a fucking MEETING to discuss this important season with a guy like MURPH!!


    Seems to be a consistent theme here, Bobby Very Happy   In any event what's happening in Birmingham and Winston-Salem seem to be more important to the Sox's future than what's going on in Chicago right now (with the exceptions of Moncada, Lopez and Gioloto).

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Tue May 29, 2018 6:34 pm

    AND YOLMWR SNACHEZ THE HIDDEN GEM!!!!!
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Tue May 29, 2018 7:14 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:AND YOLMWR SNACHEZ THE HIDDEN GEM!!!!!


    Never heard of Yolmwr Snachez but that Yolmer Sanchez guy is OK !!
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    alohafri
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by alohafri on Tue May 29, 2018 7:49 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Jack Brickhouse wrote:Get to a fucking MEETING to discuss this important season with a guy like MURPH!!


    Seems to be a consistent theme here, Bobby Very Happy   In any event what's happening in Birmingham and Winston-Salem seem to be more important to the Sox's future than what's going on in Chicago right now (with the exceptions of Moncada, Lopez and Gioloto).


    Giolito isn't impressing me this season.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Wed May 30, 2018 6:35 am

    Jack McDowell wasn’t all that impressive his first full season

    I just hope Giolito isn’t hiding some nagging injury that is slower getting worse
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by alohafri on Wed May 30, 2018 7:04 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Jack McDowell wasn’t all that impressive his first full season

    I just hope Giolito isn’t hiding some nagging injury that is slower getting worse


    I'm not saying I'm giving up on him. I'm just saying he isn't that good this year. As far as a possible injury, his velocity is down from last year.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Wed May 30, 2018 8:48 am

    IM NOT SAYIN

    IM JUST SAYIN

    THANK YOU MIKE NORTH
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Wed May 30, 2018 1:00 pm

    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Jack McDowell wasn’t all that impressive his first full season

    I just hope Giolito isn’t hiding some nagging injury that is slower getting worse


    I'm not saying I'm giving up on him. I'm just saying he isn't that good this year. As far as a possible injury, his velocity is down from last year.

    His velocity is down just a shade v. last year.   The problem was that it wasn't all that good (92.7) last year either.  92 is perfect hitting speed if the ball catches any part of the plate. 
    He was at 95-96 a few years ago though.  His delivery is too inconsistent and he's not throwing enough strikes to get ahead of hitters to use his slider and massive curve effectively.  He's walking more guys than he's striking out.  He's a real mess right now.  They are probably debating whether to send him down at this point.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Wed May 30, 2018 7:43 pm

    Giolito’s stats scream injury to the KARK

    What I call a functioning injury

    It’s kinda like a functioning alcoholic
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Thu May 31, 2018 9:57 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Giolito’s stats scream injury to the KARK

    What I call a functioning injury

    It’s kinda like a functioning alcoholic

    I wouldn't rule that out either.  But his problems didn't just start this year.   Back in 2014-early 2016 his GB rate was in the 50%-55 % range.   Last couple years it's been 40-45 % and this year it's only 40%.   More flyballs allowed = more HR's and extra base hits.  Of course walking 6 guys per 9 is also pretty horrendous as is striking out less than 5 per 9.

    Giolito's success in his short stint with the Sox last year was part illusion since he was a mid 4.00's ERA pitcher in Charlotte. He got lucky with the Sox that only 10% of his baserunners scored.  But he's been unlucky this year that 45 % are scoring.
     It's way too early to call Gioloto a bust.  IMO, it's not too early to say he's probably not going to be the star everyone thought he'd be a few years ago.  Which is why the Nationals were willing to trade him.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Thu May 31, 2018 11:26 am

    BLAH BLAH BLAH


    I CAN INVENT NUMBERS TOO


    SO SPARE ME THE LUCKY GROUNDBALL BULLSHIT


    THE ANSWER IS AS OBVIOUS AS OPENING A TEXTBOOK IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO SOLVE A MATH PROBLEM


    THE MAN AS CLEARLY LOST ALL CONTROL.  NOT ONLY DOES HE LEAD THE LEAGUE IN WALKS, BUT IN HITTING BATTERS.  THIS IS NOT AN AFTER THOUGHT YOU INFER ABOVE.


    HE ALSO LOST HIS ABILITY TO STRIKE PEOPLE OUT.  ONLY TIME HE HAS STRUCK OUT LESS WAS IN 2016 WHEN HE WAS RUSHED UP AS A 21 YEAR OLD.


    THIS SCREAMS INJURY.  PROBABLY DUE FROM OVER PROTECTION
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Thu May 31, 2018 12:48 pm

    Of course poor control is his biggest problem. But that was an issue at Charlotte last year too (4.2 BB/9) where he had 24 starts .  
    Giolito has got 5 pitches (FB, slider, sinker, change, curve).  It's hard for a young pitcher to command all of them and this year he hasn't been able to use his two most effective ones (sinker, curve) enough. His sinker is a good swing/miss and groundball inducer.  His curve is huge but big league batters see it coming and have laid off it. His fastball has never been elite (94-95), but these last two seasons it's down to the 92-93 range.  It's just getting hammered when it's up in the zone.
    Maybe reduced velocity is a sign of injury. But he needs to command his sinker 
    to be successful.   He survived a 7 walk game against the Cubs because he was 53% groundballs and only allowed 2 hits.   His two worst outings were where he was at 20-30% GB's and in addition to high BB's was getting clobbered with hits and HR's.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Thu May 31, 2018 1:50 pm

    Look at your own stats!!!!

    4.2 last year is 50% better than the 6 this year.  So quit acting like this is his typical mediocre control

    Ever think that whatever is preventing him from finding the strike zone is also preventing him from keeping the ball down and inducing your precious ground balls?

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Thu May 31, 2018 2:53 pm

    In other words, is he bad because he ain’t getting ground balls

    Or is the lack of groundball a sign that he is going bad?

    When you have a horse and a cart, the order does matter
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Thu May 31, 2018 4:24 pm

    Look at your own stats!!!!
    4.2 last year is 50% better than the 6 this year.  So quit acting like this is his typical mediocre control
    Ever think that whatever is preventing him from finding the strike zone is also preventing him from keeping the ball down and inducing your precious ground balls?
    In other words, is he bad because he ain’t getting ground balls. Or is the lack of groundball a sign that he is going bad?
    When you have a horse and a cart, the order does matter  >>

    But his 4.13 BB/9 in Charlotte was bad and that was over 24 starts.  Of 50 guys with most IP in Intl League last year, Giolito had the fourth highest BB rate. It was also bad in 2016 in AA (4.31) which was 14 starts.  So control had been a nemesis for him prior to this.  A guy who's walked 4.2 in AAA/AA can often see his rate balloon to 5 to 6 in majors. 
      
    Yeah, Gio's BB dropped to 2.6/9 in his brief stint with the Sox last year.  But "brief" is the key word.  Sometimes a new pitcher temporarily benefits from unfamiliarity. That looks like what happened last year (where hitters swung at 31% of Gio's pitches out of the zone) v. this year (they're only swinging at 22% out of the zone).   Hitters are laying off his curve, sinker and slider more this year and when hitters aren't chasing bad pitches, that's not good news for the pitcher.


    As to "injury" theory, yeah it's possible he's nursing something.  But teams these days put pitchers on the 10 DL for a hangnail.  Any little stiffness or soreness gets them yanked early from starts and under the MRI machine the next day.  IMO, it would be in Giolito's best interest to report anything that might be ailing him.  Wouldn't he and his agent want the Sox to believe that's why he's getting lit up rather than worrying that he's over-rated and sucks ?


    For the record, I think he throws so many different pitches it's tough to command them all.  When he does, and that might not be until 2020, then he could be a solid SP.    



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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Thu May 31, 2018 6:03 pm

    Whatever

    We all see the guy is sucking ass

    Don’t need an encyclopedia of stats to figure out he’s been bad practically all year

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:20 am

    Another thing I noticed, except for that 2016 six start cup of coffee, Giolito never, EVER, walked more than he struck out.


    This year 37BB to 30K.  


    The KARK thinks this is far more serious than Giolito just forgetting how to get the ball down to induce groundballs.


    And yes folks, players still do try to play thru injuries.  Claiming a hang nail gets you on the DL is painting with such a broad brush that it renders the statement silly.
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:19 am

    And yes folks, players still do try to play thru injuries.  Claiming a hang nail gets you on the DL is painting with such a broad brush that it renders the statement silly.>
    Of course more walks than strikeouts are a cause for concern.  Cooper was working with Giolito before this last game to throw more strikes.  He didn't walk anyone but the Indians hit him hard instead.  
    His K and BB problem have the same cause - hitters aren't swinging at his pitches nearly as much this year.   If hitters are laying of his "putaway" pitches like the slider or curve he isn't getting K's as much and he's racking up more BB's.
    This could come from telegraphing his pitches or just that the league is getting more familiar with his pitching patterns.
    His velocity on the fastball is down slightly this year (less than 1 mph) and that may be an indicator of a physical problem.  Of course bad mechanics could also be a cause for velocity loss. In a lost year like this, the Sox should take every measure to find out if he has an injury.  From a career perspective Giolito has every incentive to tell them if he feels a tweak or twist too. Better to get that resolved now. 
    While it's possible he is pitching hurt and doesn't know it there are other explanations for his woes.   
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Soxillinirob on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:48 am

    rmapasad wrote:His K and BB problem have the same cause - hitters aren't swinging at his pitches nearly as much this year.   If hitters are laying of his "putaway" pitches like the slider or curve he isn't getting K's as much and he's racking up more BB's.
    This could come from telegraphing his pitches or just that the league is getting more familiar with his pitching patterns.
    His velocity on the fastball is down slightly this year (less than 1 mph) and that may be an indicator of a physical problem.  Of course bad mechanics could also be a cause for velocity loss. In a lost year like this, the Sox should take every measure to find out if he has an injury.  From a career perspective Giolito has every incentive to tell them if he feels a tweak or twist too. Better to get that resolved now. 
    While it's possible he is pitching hurt and doesn't know it there are other explanations for his woes.   

    We had an extended discussion about this last season.  I remember specifically noting that I was surprised at how many non-strikes of Giolito's were getting swings.  My comments were that I assumed he must be doing something tricky that make it hard to avoid swinging, or that hitters were somehow not recognizing his pitches as balls for some reason.  Whatever the hell it was, it's not working anymore.  I watched one start in particular and noticed guys chasing shit all over the place.  Guys were swinging at pitches that were nearly hitting them, or way up in the zone, or outside and whatnot.  I'm guessing it was one particular pitch that guys weren't quite picking up, and then scouts studied him and taught the hitters how to pick up whatever pitch it was that was getting everyone to swing at crap.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:48 am

    His K and BB problem have the same cause - hitters aren't swinging at his pitches nearly as much this year.   If hitters are laying of his "putaway" pitches like the slider or curve he isn't getting K's as much and he's racking up more BB's.
    This could come from telegraphing his pitches or just that the league is getting more familiar with his pitching patterns.


    ***********************


    Somehow I doubt that this is unique to Giolito.


    James Baldwin never walked more than he struck out and the league was constantly catching up to him.


    1988, when Jack McDowell went 5-10 and earned himself a year back in AAA in 1989, he didn't walk more than he K'd


    The fact is, its kinda rare for a pitcher to walk more than he K's.  I find it hard to believe losing a mile off a fastball would turn a top prospect into Scott Ruffcorn.


    Sorry, but your explanation falls short.

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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:01 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:His K and BB problem have the same cause - hitters aren't swinging at his pitches nearly as much this year.   If hitters are laying of his "putaway" pitches like the slider or curve he isn't getting K's as much and he's racking up more BB's.
    This could come from telegraphing his pitches or just that the league is getting more familiar with his pitching patterns.
    His velocity on the fastball is down slightly this year (less than 1 mph) and that may be an indicator of a physical problem.  Of course bad mechanics could also be a cause for velocity loss. In a lost year like this, the Sox should take every measure to find out if he has an injury.  From a career perspective Giolito has every incentive to tell them if he feels a tweak or twist too. Better to get that resolved now. 
    While it's possible he is pitching hurt and doesn't know it there are other explanations for his woes.   

    We had an extended discussion about this last season.  I remember specifically noting that I was surprised at how many non-strikes of Giolito's were getting swings.  My comments were that I assumed he must be doing something tricky that make it hard to avoid swinging, or that hitters were somehow not recognizing his pitches as balls for some reason.  Whatever the hell it was, it's not working anymore.  I watched one start in particular and noticed guys chasing shit all over the place.  Guys were swinging at pitches that were nearly hitting them, or way up in the zone, or outside and whatnot.  I'm guessing it was one particular pitch that guys weren't quite picking up, and then scouts studied him and taught the hitters how to pick up whatever pitch it was that was getting everyone to swing at crap.

    Sorry Rob.


    Rarely will I disagree with you on the physical aspects of the game, but in this case...


    John Danks, even when he sucked, managed to get his strike outs.


    BTW, while you are correct that his strikes swinging have gone down, his strikes looking have increased by a similiar amount.  So you explanations seems to be missing the boat
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    Re: Tilson Called Up

    Post by Soxillinirob on Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:07 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Soxillinirob wrote:

    We had an extended discussion about this last season.  I remember specifically noting that I was surprised at how many non-strikes of Giolito's were getting swings.  My comments were that I assumed he must be doing something tricky that make it hard to avoid swinging, or that hitters were somehow not recognizing his pitches as balls for some reason.  Whatever the hell it was, it's not working anymore.  I watched one start in particular and noticed guys chasing shit all over the place.  Guys were swinging at pitches that were nearly hitting them, or way up in the zone, or outside and whatnot.  I'm guessing it was one particular pitch that guys weren't quite picking up, and then scouts studied him and taught the hitters how to pick up whatever pitch it was that was getting everyone to swing at crap.

    Sorry Rob.


    Rarely will I disagree with you on the physical aspects of the game, but in this case...


    John Danks, even when he sucked, managed to get his strike outs.


    BTW, while you are correct that his strikes swinging have gone down, his strikes looking have increased by a similiar amount.  So you explanations seems to be missing the boat

    What really is there to disagree with?  Nothing you're saying is untrue, but everything I just stated is also true.  I'm merely noting that when I watched Giolito last year he was striking guys out with pitches off the plate.  Now he's walking them with the same pitches from my observation.  Not sure why they seem inclined not to swing at those pitches, after they seemed to be swinging at them last season. 

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