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    THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

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    THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by Guest on Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:26 am

    I don't think it was Dan Bernstein, because he was laughing at his own jokes.  But it was the same type of pseudo intellectual ass clown that thinks being a clever contrarian is the same as actually knowing something.


    This idiot thinks OUR White Sox would be better off winning 70 instead of playing 500 ball, or dare I suggest, the 2nd wild card.


    First, let me state I do not condone going after playoff contention by trading prospects or keeping veterans that will clearly be gone in a year or two.  But at some point, the Moncada's and Giolito's of the org have to go from top prospect to All-Star caliber and I am not aware of any law that prevents 2018 from being that year.  Not that I would bet the house on that happening.  I've seen Avisail Garcia and Alex Fernandez spent the first three years of their careers with their heads up their ass.  So as a fan, I really can't say where the heads of the top prospects are at this point.  Obviously, the more that have their heads in the game, the better.  Both for the long and short term.


    Which brings me to my basic premise.  A lot of wins implies a good team which implies good players.  Isn't the point of the rebuild to stock up on as many good players as possible?  Therefore, at some point, all this talent has to result in wins.  Conversely, A lot of losses implies a bad team which implies either bad players or immature kids.  Knowing the immature kids could mature is the silver lining on the dark cloud raining on the parade.


    It should be obvious why a 70 win goal is just plain dumb.  A record that poor means too many things in the rebuild went wrong in 2018.  It implies too many things going wrong.  It implies Moncada is a 15-15 player with 60 walks instead f a 30-30 with 80 walks.  It implies Anderson has 50 something extra base hits instead of over 65.  It implies Sanchez is not the hidden gem.  It implies Engel is worse than Ron Karkovice.  It implies Delmonico was a fluke and the bad math crowd was right about Garcia.  Granted many of these can be overcome in 2019.  Especially if Eloy Jiminez is spanish for Frank Thomas.  However, it should be obvious that the faster these kids mature and develop, the better.  


    As I stated last year, losing is NOT a requirement for rebuilding.  It is a side effect caused by trading present value for future value.  Well, for some of OUR White Sox blue chippers, the future should be now.


    That all said, this pitching staff has the potential to stink like a skunk swimming at the bottom of a latrine.  So I acknowledge the realistic possibility that progess in the win column could be limited.  There is also a real danger of regressing.  However, to call this good, or to think they are desired; that is the dumb part.


    PSS, where is the dilo contest?
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    rmapasad
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    Re: THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:02 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:I don't think it was Dan Bernstein, because he was laughing at his own jokes.  But it was the same type of pseudo intellectual ass clown that thinks being a clever contrarian is the same as actually knowing something.


    This idiot thinks OUR White Sox would be better off winning 70 instead of playing 500 ball, or dare I suggest, the 2nd wild card.


    First, let me state I do not condone going after playoff contention by trading prospects or keeping veterans that will clearly be gone in a year or two.  But at some point, the Moncada's and Giolito's of the org have to go from top prospect to All-Star caliber and I am not aware of any law that prevents 2018 from being that year.  Not that I would bet the house on that happening.  I've seen Avisail Garcia and Alex Fernandez spent the first three years of their careers with their heads up their ass.  So as a fan, I really can't say where the heads of the top prospects are at this point.  Obviously, the more that have their heads in the game, the better.  Both for the long and short term.


    Which brings me to my basic premise.  A lot of wins implies a good team which implies good players.  Isn't the point of the rebuild to stock up on as many good players as possible?  Therefore, at some point, all this talent has to result in wins.  Conversely, A lot of losses implies a bad team which implies either bad players or immature kids.  Knowing the immature kids could mature is the silver lining on the dark cloud raining on the parade.


    It should be obvious why a 70 win goal is just plain dumb.  A record that poor means too many things in the rebuild went wrong in 2018.  It implies too many things going wrong.  It implies Moncada is a 15-15 player with 60 walks instead f a 30-30 with 80 walks.  It implies Anderson has 50 something extra base hits instead of over 65.  It implies Sanchez is not the hidden gem.  It implies Engel is worse than Ron Karkovice.  It implies Delmonico was a fluke and the bad math crowd was right about Garcia.  Granted many of these can be overcome in 2019.  Especially if Eloy Jiminez is spanish for Frank Thomas.  However, it should be obvious that the faster these kids mature and develop, the better.  


    As I stated last year, losing is NOT a requirement for rebuilding.  It is a side effect caused by trading present value for future value.  Well, for some of OUR White Sox blue chippers, the future should be now.


    That all said, this pitching staff has the potential to stink like a skunk swimming at the bottom of a latrine.  So I acknowledge the realistic possibility that progess in the win column could be limited.  There is also a real danger of regressing.  However, to call this good, or to think they are desired; that is the dumb part.


    PSS, where is the dilo contest?


    Not sure which of the blue chip prospects should be considered under the gun to perform in 2018.  All the top 10 prospects are still under 25 so it's a matter of them not falling apart and suddenly looking like busts.  If Moncada hits .260 with 15 HR's that's OK even though expectations may be higher.  If Lopez and/or Giolito are 4.25 ERA's that's decent enough given their ages.  Ditto Fullmer.  For that matter, even though it seems he's been around forever, Rodon is only 25 so I wouldn't call 2018 a now or never season for him either, particularly since he won't even be ready until June.  Ditto Tim Anderson who will only turn 25.  
    The guys who are under the gun are the 26-27 year olds - Davidson, Delmonico, Yolmer, Engel, Cordell, Skole, Leury.  They have to show they can cut it this year or they'll drop by the wayside.  Four of them, along with Castillo will be on the Opening Day starting lineup and all of them could be gone by 2020.  Same could be true for Avi Garcia and/or Abreu. Plus regular pitchers like Shields, Miguel Gonzalez and Soria won't even be around in 2019.  Which is why I don't see major league won-loss record as a critical indicator this year, when 2/3 or 3/4 of the team's starters in 2018 might not be around two years from now.  

    al in cal
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    Re: THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by al in cal on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:56 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:I don't think it was Dan Bernstein, because he was laughing at his own jokes.  But it was the same type of pseudo intellectual ass clown that thinks being a clever contrarian is the same as actually knowing something.


    This idiot thinks OUR White Sox would be better off winning 70 instead of playing 500 ball, or dare I suggest, the 2nd wild card.


    First, let me state I do not condone going after playoff contention by trading prospects or keeping veterans that will clearly be gone in a year or two.  But at some point, the Moncada's and Giolito's of the org have to go from top prospect to All-Star caliber and I am not aware of any law that prevents 2018 from being that year.  Not that I would bet the house on that happening.  I've seen Avisail Garcia and Alex Fernandez spent the first three years of their careers with their heads up their ass.  So as a fan, I really can't say where the heads of the top prospects are at this point.  Obviously, the more that have their heads in the game, the better.  Both for the long and short term.


    Which brings me to my basic premise.  A lot of wins implies a good team which implies good players.  Isn't the point of the rebuild to stock up on as many good players as possible?  Therefore, at some point, all this talent has to result in wins.  Conversely, A lot of losses implies a bad team which implies either bad players or immature kids.  Knowing the immature kids could mature is the silver lining on the dark cloud raining on the parade.


    It should be obvious why a 70 win goal is just plain dumb.  A record that poor means too many things in the rebuild went wrong in 2018.  It implies too many things going wrong.  It implies Moncada is a 15-15 player with 60 walks instead f a 30-30 with 80 walks.  It implies Anderson has 50 something extra base hits instead of over 65.  It implies Sanchez is not the hidden gem.  It implies Engel is worse than Ron Karkovice.  It implies Delmonico was a fluke and the bad math crowd was right about Garcia.  Granted many of these can be overcome in 2019.  Especially if Eloy Jiminez is spanish for Frank Thomas.  However, it should be obvious that the faster these kids mature and develop, the better.  


    As I stated last year, losing is NOT a requirement for rebuilding.  It is a side effect caused by trading present value for future value.  Well, for some of OUR White Sox blue chippers, the future should be now.


    That all said, this pitching staff has the potential to stink like a skunk swimming at the bottom of a latrine.  So I acknowledge the realistic possibility that progess in the win column could be limited.  There is also a real danger of regressing.  However, to call this good, or to think they are desired; that is the dumb part.


    PSS, where is the dilo contest?


    Not sure which of the blue chip prospects should be considered under the gun to perform in 2018.  All the top 10 prospects are still under 25 so it's a matter of them not falling apart and suddenly looking like busts.  If Moncada hits .260 with 15 HR's that's OK even though expectations may be higher.  If Lopez and/or Giolito are 4.25 ERA's that's decent enough given their ages.  Ditto Fullmer.  For that matter, even though it seems he's been around forever, Rodon is only 25 so I wouldn't call 2018 a now or never season for him either, particularly since he won't even be ready until June.  Ditto Tim Anderson who will only turn 25.  
    The guys who are under the gun are the 26-27 year olds - Davidson, Delmonico, Yolmer, Engel, Cordell, Skole, Leury.  They have to show they can cut it this year or they'll drop by the wayside.  Four of them, along with Castillo will be on the Opening Day starting lineup and all of them could be gone by 2020.  Same could be true for Avi Garcia and/or Abreu. Plus regular pitchers like Shields, Miguel Gonzalez and Soria won't even be around in 2019.  Which is why I don't see major league won-loss record as a critical indicator this year, when 2/3 or 3/4 of the team's starters in 2018 might not be around two years from now.  

    I replied to this thread but somehow it never got posted. Don't know what I did wrong.

    al in cal
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    Re: THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by al in cal on Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:16 pm

    This is now the 3rd time I am trying to respond to this thread. Don't know what is really going on. Basically I think that the Sox shuld set a team goal of 85 wins this year and treat anything less as a disappointment. And if they fail on reaching it, they should set a 90 win goal for the next season.

     Look, they gave away two of the best starting pitchers in the major leagues for some prospects. They are supposed to have these great prospects so let them deliver. I also question the make-up of their starting pitching make-up. I believe that they should should add at least two of their prospects to the starting rotation. Let them struggle under Cooper's tutorial wonder, and not drag a couple of over-the-hill guys into this season. Pitchers develop a lot sooner than position players so let them develop.

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    Re: THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by Guest on Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:53 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:I don't think it was Dan Bernstein, because he was laughing at his own jokes.  But it was the same type of pseudo intellectual ass clown that thinks being a clever contrarian is the same as actually knowing something.


    This idiot thinks OUR White Sox would be better off winning 70 instead of playing 500 ball, or dare I suggest, the 2nd wild card.


    First, let me state I do not condone going after playoff contention by trading prospects or keeping veterans that will clearly be gone in a year or two.  But at some point, the Moncada's and Giolito's of the org have to go from top prospect to All-Star caliber and I am not aware of any law that prevents 2018 from being that year.  Not that I would bet the house on that happening.  I've seen Avisail Garcia and Alex Fernandez spent the first three years of their careers with their heads up their ass.  So as a fan, I really can't say where the heads of the top prospects are at this point.  Obviously, the more that have their heads in the game, the better.  Both for the long and short term.


    Which brings me to my basic premise.  A lot of wins implies a good team which implies good players.  Isn't the point of the rebuild to stock up on as many good players as possible?  Therefore, at some point, all this talent has to result in wins.  Conversely, A lot of losses implies a bad team which implies either bad players or immature kids.  Knowing the immature kids could mature is the silver lining on the dark cloud raining on the parade.


    It should be obvious why a 70 win goal is just plain dumb.  A record that poor means too many things in the rebuild went wrong in 2018.  It implies too many things going wrong.  It implies Moncada is a 15-15 player with 60 walks instead f a 30-30 with 80 walks.  It implies Anderson has 50 something extra base hits instead of over 65.  It implies Sanchez is not the hidden gem.  It implies Engel is worse than Ron Karkovice.  It implies Delmonico was a fluke and the bad math crowd was right about Garcia.  Granted many of these can be overcome in 2019.  Especially if Eloy Jiminez is spanish for Frank Thomas.  However, it should be obvious that the faster these kids mature and develop, the better.  


    As I stated last year, losing is NOT a requirement for rebuilding.  It is a side effect caused by trading present value for future value.  Well, for some of OUR White Sox blue chippers, the future should be now.


    That all said, this pitching staff has the potential to stink like a skunk swimming at the bottom of a latrine.  So I acknowledge the realistic possibility that progess in the win column could be limited.  There is also a real danger of regressing.  However, to call this good, or to think they are desired; that is the dumb part.


    PSS, where is the dilo contest?


    Not sure which of the blue chip prospects should be considered under the gun to perform in 2018.  All the top 10 prospects are still under 25 so it's a matter of them not falling apart and suddenly looking like busts.  If Moncada hits .260 with 15 HR's that's OK even though expectations may be higher.  If Lopez and/or Giolito are 4.25 ERA's that's decent enough given their ages.  Ditto Fullmer.  For that matter, even though it seems he's been around forever, Rodon is only 25 so I wouldn't call 2018 a now or never season for him either, particularly since he won't even be ready until June.  Ditto Tim Anderson who will only turn 25.  
    The guys who are under the gun are the 26-27 year olds - Davidson, Delmonico, Yolmer, Engel, Cordell, Skole, Leury.  They have to show they can cut it this year or they'll drop by the wayside.  Four of them, along with Castillo will be on the Opening Day starting lineup and all of them could be gone by 2020.  Same could be true for Avi Garcia and/or Abreu. Plus regular pitchers like Shields, Miguel Gonzalez and Soria won't even be around in 2019.  Which is why I don't see major league won-loss record as a critical indicator this year, when 2/3 or 3/4 of the team's starters in 2018 might not be around two years from now.  


    Figures the main point would fly right over you head.

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    Re: THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by Guest on Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:03 am

    al in cal wrote:This is now the 3rd time I am trying to respond to this thread. Don't know what is really going on. Basically I think that the Sox shuld set a team goal of 85 wins this year and treat anything less as a disappointment. And if they fail on reaching it, they should set a 90 win goal for the next season.

     Look, they gave away two of the best starting pitchers in the major leagues for some prospects. They are supposed to have these great prospects so let them deliver. I also question the make-up of their starting pitching make-up. I believe that they should should add at least two of their prospects to the starting rotation. Let them struggle under Cooper's tutorial wonder, and not drag a couple of over-the-hill guys into this season. Pitchers develop a lot sooner than position players so let them develop.


    Not exactly what I was getting at, but at least you understand that losing is not a good thing.


    It is the KARK's not so humble opinion that 2018 should be devoted to development.  Now common sense would dictate the faster these kids develop, the better.  Better for their careers, and better for the team.  Again, its not the end of the world if Moncada and Jiminez look are a clueless Harold Baines in 1980.  But the future looks much brighter if they hit from day one, ala Ken Griffey Jr.


    This notion that nothing matters until 2020 is beyond retarded
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    rmapasad
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    Re: THE STUPIDITY OF SETTING 70 WINS AS A GOAL

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:02 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Not exactly what I was getting at, but at least you understand that losing is not a good thing.
    It is the KARK's not so humble opinion that 2018 should be devoted to development.  Now common sense would dictate the faster these kids develop, the better.  Better for their careers, and better for the team.  Again, its not the end of the world if Moncada and Jiminez look are a clueless Harold Baines in 1980.  But the future looks much brighter if they hit from day one, ala Ken Griffey Jr.
    This notion that nothing matters until 2020 is beyond retarded

    Clearly teams need studs to be consistent contenders and hopefully Moncada, Jiminez, Gioloto and Kopech prove to be that.   But as 21-23 year olds I'd measure them against guys of similar ages. While ideally they could do what Trout or Griffey did in their early 20's, those are real exceptions. Jose Altuve's 678 OPS at age 23, Aaron Judge's 681 in AAA at the same age, and Jose Ramirez's 646 are more typical.  So anything above a 780 OPS for Yoan looks damn impressive for his age 23 season as did his 750 last year at age 22.
    Real core of 2018 Sox team are the "former" BA 100 prospects like Avi Garcia, Abreu, Anderson, Davidson along with Engel, Sanchez, and Delmonico.  That's 7 of the 9 offensive starters. Plus Rodon and Fullmer, also former top 100 guys.

    So IMO, 2018's won-loss record is a grade card more on the 24-30 year olds, who are still the bulk of the team, versus the 21-23 year olds most of whom are still in the minors.  If a very high % of the 24-30 year olds are truly keepers for the future then that will be a solid foundation for 2019 to go along with the stud 21-23 year olds who will be part of the mix by then.






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