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    Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

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    al in cal
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:04 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Al


    50 years ago, Kopech is on the starting rotation.


    Today, sometimes you have to keep a kid down to delay the start of the free agency clock.


    The logic is that he can struggle for 2/3 of a season and he will still learn form the process.  Meanwhile, the team keeps control for an extra year.


    PS, I don't believe Kopech will struggle all that much once called up


    That's just my point, Kark. I think the notion of holding a kid's development back a year is dumb. Let the kid get coached by Cooper. I can see both sides of the argument, though.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:22 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:In general, I agree.  I thought the Cubs were idiots when they made Kris Bryant spend the first couple of weeks of his rookie year in AAA.  If the kid is ready, he is ready.  You may get the extra year, but I’m sure the player will remember.

    Now Kopech might be justified going to AAA because the extra seasoning will help

    As for innings, some guys can handle 250+.  Others are lucky to last for 200.  A smart team would figure out which is which.  Not dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.  If you got a stud, ride him.

    Nobody handles 250 IP anymore.  The last guy to do it was Verlander in 2011, and the last guy to hit 240 IP was in 2014 (David Price, who had arm problems in 2017).
    Chris Sale led the majors in IP last year at 214.   250 IP has been going away for quite a while - it's only happened 8 times in last 17 seasons.   Like 300 IP, no one will likely ever pitch 250 again.

    al in cal
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:27 pm

    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:In general, I agree.  I thought the Cubs were idiots when they made Kris Bryant spend the first couple of weeks of his rookie year in AAA.  If the kid is ready, he is ready.  You may get the extra year, but I’m sure the player will remember.

    Now Kopech might be justified going to AAA because the extra seasoning will help

    As for innings, some guys can handle 250+.  Others are lucky to last for 200.  A smart team would figure out which is which.  Not dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.  If you got a stud, ride him.

    Everyone is looking for their next job. The player and agent want in the bigs as soon as possible so the player can become a free agent as soon as possible. The team wants the player to stick around as long as possible. It's always "us vs. them."

    Yeah. I understand. Yet I believe more in finding out what you have as early as you can. Its still a crap shoot either way and some guys take longer to figure things out. And as I've said before, I think position players as a rule need more time. But pitchers are different in terms of development. I do think that players signed out of high school need more time to develop than those out of college some of which is that they are still growing into their bodies.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:33 pm

    al in cal wrote:
    alohafri wrote:Yeah. I understand. Yet I believe more in finding out what you have as early as you can. Its still a crap shoot either way and some guys take longer to figure things out. And as I've said before, I think position players as a rule need more time. But pitchers are different in terms of development. I do think that players signed out of high school need more time to develop than those out of college some of which is that they are still growing into their bodies.


    As far as rushing a pitcher up, I think it depends on the guy. Greg Maddux had good command  through the minors at ages 19-20 so he just needed to learn to pitch against big league hitters, even though he struggled at first. But Randy Johnson didn't even make it to the majors until he was 26.  He needed to harness his mechanics so he wouldn't walk nearly a guy an inning like he was in the minors.  Home plate is always the same size and place no matter what so when a guy can't find it in the minors there's no point bringing him to the majors. 

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:20 am

    Learn how to read.  I said handle.  Just because pitchers are no longer allowed doesn’t mean they can’t handle it.  

    PS, Jack McDowell agrees with me and McDowell knows more about pitching than you do.  Bushels more

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:44 am

    2008, CC Sanbathia pitche 253 IP, which did not lead the league.  The year b4 he did with 241.  Anybody think his career suffered?

    How dumb does one have to be to think that just 10 years later all the Sabbathia types all long gone?

    It’s like the Dept of Ed, babying kids like never b4 and calling it progress.  Only difference is, MLB can’t doctor the stats to make 27 starts 180 IP look like Nolan Ryan in the 70’s
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:37 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:2008, CC Sanbathia pitche 253 IP, which did not lead the league.  The year b4 he did with 241.  Anybody think his career suffered?

    How dumb does one have to be to think that just 10 years later all the Sabbathia types all long gone?

    It’s like the Dept of Ed, babying kids like never b4 and calling it progress.  Only difference is, MLB can’t doctor the stats to make 27 starts 180 IP look like Nolan Ryan in the 70’s

    First of all, Sabathia's career did hit the wall at age 32 (right after signing a big extension). He ballooned up to a near 5.00 ERA that season and then only threw 46 innings the next year.   Since then he's averaged a high 3.00's ERA and about 160 innings per year.  The Yankees protected their investment in him by cutting his innings way down in his mid-30's.  To CC's credit he changed into a finesse pitcher.

    Some heavily worked pitchers have survived pretty well- Verlander, Greinke.  Some haven't - Johann Santana, Tim Lincecum.

    Besides, you can't compare workloads back in the 1970's when hitters weren't crushing HR's like today and strikeouts weren't at an alltime high like last year either.  Hitters are stronger, pitchers can't cruise through as many batters as back then, etc.   Velocities across the board are way up in the bigs. It's different when the average pitcher of today is throwing low-mid 90s versus high 80's, low 90's 15-20 years ago.  Plus, I think pitching mechanics are worse today which is why some of these guys are breaking down more.  Last but not least is money.  Clubs are paying someone $ 25 mil a year, they don't want to push him an extra 20-30 IP and then see the guy miss the next year and a half with a TJ surgery.

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