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    Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

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    Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:34 am

    The KARK loves the idea of Engel in CF.  Defense matters and Engel is pure gold glove talent.  Now you don't need to be a CPA with a 135 IQ to figure out his bat outrighted sucked in 2017.  However, there is no reason Engel can't improve to at least the Ron Karkovice level of offensive production.


    Shame Cordell got sent down.  He was basically screwed by the 13th pitcher.  Leury Garcia is the 4th OF.  I'd rather see Cordell out there.  2/3 of the outfield is unproven.  3/3 is you are in the Avisail is a fluke camp. If the MLB is going to insist on carrying this many pitcher, they really need to expand the rosters.


    My new favorite cause, Matt Skole still in camp.  I read that Jose Abreau has some nagging injuries.  That plays in Skole's favor.  If I'm Skole, I make sure the coaches are watching me shag flies in the OF.  Then pray the coaches decide that Leury can be the up the middle backup while Skole covers the corners.  Or maybe the team can go with just 12 pitchers.  3 more than the Earl Weaver limit

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:42 pm

    Matt Skole just sent down.  That leaves 13 non pitchers in camp, 3 of them catchers.  So I assume it will be Kevan Smith getting the axe by 3/29.


    Charlotte is shaping up to be a Quad A paradise. 
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:51 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:The KARK loves the idea of Engel in CF.  Defense matters and Engel is pure gold glove talent.  Now you don't need to be a CPA with a 135 IQ to figure out his bat outrighted sucked in 2017.  However, there is no reason Engel can't improve to at least the Ron Karkovice level of offensive production.

    Shame Cordell got sent down.  He was basically screwed by the 13th pitcher.  Leury Garcia is the 4th OF.  I'd rather see Cordell out there.  2/3 of the outfield is unproven.  3/3 is you are in the Avisail is a fluke camp. If the MLB is going to insist on carrying this many pitcher, they really need to expand the rosters.


    My new favorite cause, Matt Skole still in camp.  I read that Jose Abreau has some nagging injuries.  That plays in Skole's favor.  If I'm Skole, I make sure the coaches are watching me shag flies in the OF.  Then pray the coaches decide that Leury can be the up the middle backup while Skole covers the corners.  Or maybe the team can go with just 12 pitchers.  3 more than the Earl Weaver limit


    Cordell will get a chance to play everyday in Charlotte and he still may slide into either the LF or CF job in Chicago at some point this season due to injury or one of the regulars not cutting it.
    Engel's had a good spring with the bat (4 HR, .364 BA) but early-mid March pitching is often AAA/AA calibre so not sure how much carryover that will have to the real season. Engel had 6 major hitting problems last year  1- Not enough walks    2- A horrendous rate of 35 K's per 100 PA (worse than Adam Dunn) 3 - Highest IF popup rate in the majors  4- Too many OF flyball outs  5- One of the 3 lowest line drive rate in majors  6 - Not a high enough BA on his groundballs given his speed.  
    He has to make big improvements on his K rate and dramatically cut down on his air balls just to crack a .220 BA.  He's got a lot of problems to fix. 

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:10 pm

    So Engel hits too many balls in the air, while Garcia hits too many on the ground

    Thank you Goldilocks

    6 problems, LMAO

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:13 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:So Engel hits too many balls in the air, while Garcia hits too many on the ground

    Thank you Goldilocks

    6 problems, LMAO

        It depends where those ground ball hits and for that matter bloop hits that fall in are located doesn't it? I think that Garcia LEARNED a lot about hitting from both Paulie and Abreu as well as the guy who came over from the A's a few years ago(forget his name). He used to be the A's hitting instructor for years. Met and talked to him a couple of times when one of my former players played in the A's organization back when.

      What Paulie and Abreu do/did extremely well is to serve the quality pitch down the line to right or the ground ball in the whole between 1st base and the 2nd baseman. This is NOT LUCK. It is technique. What this tells the defense is that you cannot play me or pitch me in any 100% certain way because I have the answer for what you want to do. Both Abreu and Konerko could absolutely crush a bad located pitch but they also could ruin a great pitch because they could adjust their hands accordingly.

       I think that Garcia is going to be a consistent .300 + hitter, and as long as they have a healthy Abreu hitting behind him, he is going to get a lot of pitches to drive and yet be a good enough hitter to adjust to quality pitches.
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:02 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:So Engel hits too many balls in the air, while Garcia hits too many on the ground

    Thank you Goldilocks

    6 problems, LMAO

    Engel hit .188 off balls he put in the air, Avi hit .321 when he did.  Avi is 6'4", 240 lbs. and can muscle those airballs  a long way.  Way too many of Engel's were harmless, easy outs.

    But Engel's biggest problem was striking out 35 times out of every 100 PA's.   He needs to cut his K's  almost in half and hit half as many popups to stand any chance of coming close to a .250 BA.  

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:41 am

    THANK YOU CAPT OBVIOUS


    NOW HOW DO YOU GETTING HIM FROM STRIKING OUT AND POPPING UP


    SHOULD WE DIVIDE BY 1.8?

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:21 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:THANK YOU CAPT OBVIOUS


    NOW HOW DO YOU GETTING HIM FROM STRIKING OUT AND POPPING UP


    SHOULD WE DIVIDE BY 1.8?

    geek

    He needs to do basically the same thing that he did in his 2015-2016 seasons in the minors where he hit .255 on the whole.  Instead of 35 % K rate, he was at 22% and instead of a flyball rate of 45% (with Sox last year) it was only 37%.   More line drives and groundballs meant more hits.   Likewise, his BB/HBP rate was 11% to give him an overall 2015-2016 OBP of .335.  Getting on base 1/3 of the time with his speed makes him a net plus on offense even with a .250-ish BA. 
    His Spring #'s are positive.ook  Strikeouts are down to 19% of PA's and BB's are up to 10% (from 5.5% with Sox in '17).  His HR's are up too, but  hopefully that doesn't get him swinging for the fences and trying to elevate the ball too often.  But cutting down on K's and increasing BB's and line drives will give him a chance to keep justifying his starting job.  

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:27 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:So Engel hits too many balls in the air, while Garcia hits too many on the ground

    Thank you Goldilocks

    6 problems, LMAO

    Engel hit .188 off balls he put in the air, Avi hit .321 when he did.  Avi is 6'4", 240 lbs. and can muscle those airballs  a long way.  Way too many of Engel's were harmless, easy outs.

    But Engel's biggest problem was striking out 35 times out of every 100 PA's.   He needs to cut his K's  almost in half and hit half as many popups to stand any chance of coming close to a .250 BA.  

    You are 100% correct, I think that Engel is not going to make it in the major leagues. Now he is making a major swing adjustment. His swing is still too long and he is not strong enough. He has a pretty limited hit zone as I see it. Maybe he could latch on as a 4th outfielder and pinch runner but I do not see him as a starting player on a good team.

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:59 am

    Like I said Al, Engel just might be the Ron Karkovice of centerfielders.


    Philosophically, if a team is willing to carry a bad glove just to get an extra bat in the lineup, why not carry a bad bat to get an extra glove in the lineup?


    If Engel played everyday, he is a gold glove contender.  The big question is, will he give away all the runs he saves by striking out an popping up?  I get the impression OUR White Sox are going to stomach Engel in CF in 2018 as much as possible because his glove will aid in the development of the young pitchers.


    In the early 90's, OUR White Sox had a similiar player, Rodney McCray.  Fast has hell, stole tons of bases, covered everything in the OF.  Couldn't hit a lick.  Even his minor league record is weak.  The ever growing pitching staff elimates this type of player.  When your bench is now a one catcher, one IF and one OF, all 3 have to hit a little bit.  Carrying a guy who is strictly speed and defense would force a team to drop that all important 13th pitcher.
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:25 am

    al in cal wrote:

    You are 100% correct, I think that Engel is not going to make it in the major leagues. Now he is making a major swing adjustment. His swing is still too long and he is not strong enough. He has a pretty limited hit zone as I see it. Maybe he could latch on as a 4th outfielder and pinch runner but I do not see him as a starting player on a good team.

    Al, agree his swing is too long and he tries to elevate too much.  That along with swinging at too many bad  pitches led to a ton of strikeouts and harmless air balls last year.
    He's had times where he can cut down on the K's, but it's mostly been in the low minors or Spring Training.   Has to prove that against more advanced pitching in AAA and the majors.   Anything over 25% K rate is going to make it tough for him to keep a starting job.  

    His game is speed and base stealing ability.  But he's got to get on base for it to be any value. Needs more walks, and has to shorten his swing, go opposite field/up the middle more.  He can scratch out IF leg hits so hitting the ball on the ground more wouldn't hurt.
    He tied Davidson for the most HR's in Spring Training.  Hopefully that doesn't have him thinking power and trying to lift the ball. Might be some hope for him but he's got problems to correct and major league pitchers will keep punishing him if he doesn't.
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:38 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Like I said Al, Engel just might be the Ron Karkovice of centerfielders.


    Philosophically, if a team is willing to carry a bad glove just to get an extra bat in the lineup, why not carry a bad bat to get an extra glove in the lineup?


    If Engel played everyday, he is a gold glove contender.  The big question is, will he give away all the runs he saves by striking out an popping up?  I get the impression OUR White Sox are going to stomach Engel in CF in 2018 as much as possible because his glove will aid in the development of the young pitchers.


    In the early 90's, OUR White Sox had a similiar player, Rodney McCray.  Fast has hell, stole tons of bases, covered everything in the OF.  Couldn't hit a lick.  Even his minor league record is weak.  The ever growing pitching staff elimates this type of player.  When your bench is now a one catcher, one IF and one OF, all 3 have to hit a little bit.  Carrying a guy who is strictly speed and defense would force a team to drop that all important 13th pitcher.

    Engel hit well enough in Spring Training to win the CF job and it's not like he was facing tough competition.  Yeah, the Sox like his glove but he won't hold the job long if he can't hit his weight which he couldn't do last year. 
    Unfortunately Luis Robert will miss a couple months which sets his timetable back another half season so the Sox are probably hoping that either Engel or Tilson will be be an at least a tolerable interim solution for 2019-2020.  
    As to the 13th pitcher, was listening to Oral Hersheiser on the Dodger postgame last night on this subject.  He resisted the concept at first, thinking back to his days as a workhorse.  But then he said after a while he realized that clubs had studied this and with the longer postseason now it makes sense to have more fresh pitchers to run in.

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:13 am

    WOULD LOVE TO SEE THESE STUDIES.  12ER OF SUMMER SHANDY SAYS THEY DON'T EXIST


    HOW THE FUCK DO YOU STUDY SOMETHING WITHOUT TESTING A CONTROL OR A CONVERSE.


    WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THE 4 MAN WAS TESTED?


    SEEMS TO ME CLUBS JUST KEEP ADDING MORE PITCHERS WITH VERY LITTLE CREATIVITY


    NOW PLEASE TELL ME THAT HERSHEISER KNOW BUSHELS MORE ABOUT PITCHING THE THE KARK


    WELL MR, I'M NOT QUESTIONING HIS KNOWLEDGE.  MORE LIKE QUESTIONING HOW MUCH THOUGHT HE HAS REALLY PUT INTO CHANGING HIS MIND.  DID HE THINK LONG AND HARD AND RUN SOME TESTS ON HIS OWN.  OR IS HE JUST TOUTING THE COMPANY LINE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE THAT MUCH ONE WAY OR THE OTHER


    AGAIN, DOUBT THESE STUDIES EXIST.  WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A STUDY DONE BY CRAIG WRIGHT IN THE LATE 80'S EARLY 90'S TOUTING A RETURN TO THE 4 MAN WITH A 100 PITCH LIMIT.  VERY OBVIOUS TO ME THE WHITE SOX JUST DECIDED IN THE MID TO LATE 90'S TO GO 5 MAN WITH THE 100 PITCH LIMIT, THINKING IT WOULD SAVE EVEN MORE ARMS.  WHICH IT DIDN'T


    BUT SINCE YOU ARE SO INTO ALL THESE SOCALLED STUDIES, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME HOW MUCH VARIATION THERE IS IN THE HANDLING OF PITCHING.  AGAIN, I AM SEEING VERY LITTLE CREATIVITY.  JUST MORE BULLPEN LESS BENCH MINIMAL EXPERIMENTATION

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:29 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Like I said Al, Engel just might be the Ron Karkovice of centerfielders.


    Philosophically, if a team is willing to carry a bad glove just to get an extra bat in the lineup, why not carry a bad bat to get an extra glove in the lineup?


    If Engel played everyday, he is a gold glove contender.  The big question is, will he give away all the runs he saves by striking out an popping up?  I get the impression OUR White Sox are going to stomach Engel in CF in 2018 as much as possible because his glove will aid in the development of the young pitchers.


    In the early 90's, OUR White Sox had a similiar player, Rodney McCray.  Fast has hell, stole tons of bases, covered everything in the OF.  Couldn't hit a lick.  Even his minor league record is weak.  The ever growing pitching staff elimates this type of player.  When your bench is now a one catcher, one IF and one OF, all 3 have to hit a little bit.  Carrying a guy who is strictly speed and defense would force a team to drop that all important 13th pitcher.

    Engel hit well enough in Spring Training to win the CF job and it's not like he was facing tough competition.  Yeah, the Sox like his glove but he won't hold the job long if he can't hit his weight which he couldn't do last year. 
    Unfortunately Luis Robert will miss a couple months which sets his timetable back another half season so the Sox are probably hoping that either Engel or Tilson will be be an at least a tolerable interim solution for 2019-2020.  
    As to the 13th pitcher, was listening to Oral Hersheiser on the Dodger postgame last night on this subject.  He resisted the concept at first, thinking back to his days as a workhorse.  But then he said after a while he realized that clubs had studied this and with the longer postseason now it makes sense to have more fresh pitchers to run in.


    1) Robert was probably 3 years away b4 the injury
    2) Engel and Tilson are not the only options for 2019-2020.  I'm sure new choices will present themsleves this winter
    3) If 2018 is a rebuilding year, who cares what Engel hits.  Enjoy the defense and watch the pitchers develop.  You ain't going to get a blue chip budding superstar at every position.
    4) Ron Karkovice jumped his average a 100 points in his 2nd full year.  If Engel can get his OPS to 620-630, his glove makes he a decent stop gap in 2018.  with all the young pitching, I'm hoping Engel can get at least 1000 innings in CF this summer
    5) You don't need the same stop gap CF every year until Robert is ready.
    6) Your argument sounds like a subliminal cry for Lorenzo Cain

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:50 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Like I said Al, Engel just might be the Ron Karkovice of centerfielders.


    Philosophically, if a team is willing to carry a bad glove just to get an extra bat in the lineup, why not carry a bad bat to get an extra glove in the lineup?


    If Engel played everyday, he is a gold glove contender.  The big question is, will he give away all the runs he saves by striking out an popping up?  I get the impression OUR White Sox are going to stomach Engel in CF in 2018 as much as possible because his glove will aid in the development of the young pitchers.


    In the early 90's, OUR White Sox had a similiar player, Rodney McCray.  Fast has hell, stole tons of bases, covered everything in the OF.  Couldn't hit a lick.  Even his minor league record is weak.  The ever growing pitching staff elimates this type of player.  When your bench is now a one catcher, one IF and one OF, all 3 have to hit a little bit.  Carrying a guy who is strictly speed and defense would force a team to drop that all important 13th pitcher.

    Engel hit well enough in Spring Training to win the CF job and it's not like he was facing tough competition.  Yeah, the Sox like his glove but he won't hold the job long if he can't hit his weight which he couldn't do last year. 
    Unfortunately Luis Robert will miss a couple months which sets his timetable back another half season so the Sox are probably hoping that either Engel or Tilson will be be an at least a tolerable interim solution for 2019-2020.  
    As to the 13th pitcher, was listening to Oral Hersheiser on the Dodger postgame last night on this subject.  He resisted the concept at first, thinking back to his days as a workhorse.  But then he said after a while he realized that clubs had studied this and with the longer postseason now it makes sense to have more fresh pitchers to run in.

       I'm sorry  but This White Sox team has six quality bats in their line-up and their outfield bats suck as a group as do their catchers. I am a 100% believer that the guy batting depends quite a bit on the guy hitting behind him. The Sox batting order over-all is weak. When you have three big holes in your line-up, you do not have a team that will score runs.
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:58 pm

    1- Sure, Robert is a projection based on his tools and less than 100 ab's in rookie ball.  But if his  abilities are as good as the scouts say, he could climb fast through the minors.  2019 was too soon, but maybe 2020 wasn't out of the question. Now 2021 looks more realistic.

    2 - How much Engel helps the young pitchers is hard to say. Granted, you don't want a butcher in CF who can't catch what he should.  But pitchers also need to learn they will pay for their mistakes in the majors and it's not OK to give up screaming line drives in the gap since they can't always count on a Gold Glover to run them down. If Engel can't hit his weight, pitchers will not see him out there for very long. 


    3- I suspect Robert will get enough time in this season for the Sox to get a read on what his progress will look like.  2018 will also help determine whether Engel and/or Tilson have any hope of being at least an interim solution.   In Engel's case, a .245/.315/.380 season can justify his existence given the glove.  But a .210/.260/.340 clearly won't. 


    As to Cain, that was never the right solution for the Sox given the 5 years, $ 80 million. So what's the point bringing him up again (and again) ?  But there will be other free agents (or trades) the Sox may want to look at.  Sometimes you never know.  Dodgers got their CFer Chris Taylor off the scrap heap and if Hahn keeps his eyes open maybe he can strike gold too.
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:06 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:WOULD LOVE TO SEE THESE STUDIES.  12ER OF SUMMER SHANDY SAYS THEY DON'T EXIST


    HOW THE FUCK DO YOU STUDY SOMETHING WITHOUT TESTING A CONTROL OR A CONVERSE.


    WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME THE 4 MAN WAS TESTED?


    SEEMS TO ME CLUBS JUST KEEP ADDING MORE PITCHERS WITH VERY LITTLE CREATIVITY


    NOW PLEASE TELL ME THAT HERSHEISER KNOW BUSHELS MORE ABOUT PITCHING THE THE KARK


    WELL MR, I'M NOT QUESTIONING HIS KNOWLEDGE.  MORE LIKE QUESTIONING HOW MUCH THOUGHT HE HAS REALLY PUT INTO CHANGING HIS MIND.  DID HE THINK LONG AND HARD AND RUN SOME TESTS ON HIS OWN.  OR IS HE JUST TOUTING THE COMPANY LINE BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE THAT MUCH ONE WAY OR THE OTHER


    AGAIN, DOUBT THESE STUDIES EXIST.  WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A STUDY DONE BY CRAIG WRIGHT IN THE LATE 80'S EARLY 90'S TOUTING A RETURN TO THE 4 MAN WITH A 100 PITCH LIMIT.  VERY OBVIOUS TO ME THE WHITE SOX JUST DECIDED IN THE MID TO LATE 90'S TO GO 5 MAN WITH THE 100 PITCH LIMIT, THINKING IT WOULD SAVE EVEN MORE ARMS.  WHICH IT DIDN'T


    BUT SINCE YOU ARE SO INTO ALL THESE SOCALLED STUDIES, WHY DON'T YOU TELL ME HOW MUCH VARIATION THERE IS IN THE HANDLING OF PITCHING.  AGAIN, I AM SEEING VERY LITTLE CREATIVITY.  JUST MORE BULLPEN LESS BENCH MINIMAL EXPERIMENTATION

    Don't think Hershiser was referring to sabermetric studies so much as how teams have looked at starter/bullpen usage in the last few years and this would probably include the issue of money.

    It seems as though 2015 champion Royals changed thinking about bullpens dramatically.  In 2014, starters averaged 966 IP per team but by 2017 that dropped to 892 per team. To give this some perspective, in 1988 starters averaged 1027 IP per team.  Which means in last three years, starter IP per team dropped more (74 innings) than it had in a twenty six period from 1988-2014 (61 innings).  In 2014 fully 90% of all teams got 925 IP or more from their starters but in 2017 only 17% of all teams got that many IP.

    The KC Royals in 2015 made the decision that they didn't have the big $$ to spend on the top SP's on the market, so they beefed up their bullpen.  They got 986 IP from starters in 2014 but only a mere 
    912 in 2015 and it worked for them. 

    Since Hershiser is a TV analyst for the Dodgers he saw what the analytical Dodger front office learned from the Royals.  In 2015 LA spent $ 78 million on five SP's and three of them were hurt a lot.  They didn't have a good 3rd SP for the playoffs and Kershaw and Greinke were a bit exhausted and didn't have their best games. LA got knocked out of the 1st rd of playoffs. So the next year LA cuts their top 5 SP payroll by $ 17 mil, their starter IP went from 978 in 2015 to 865 and 885 IP the next two years.  And Dodgers made the LCS and WS those next two years.

    It's less expensive to build out bullpens than the back-end of a rotation when starters with 4.00 ERA's command $ 12-15 mil per year.  Plus the number of big $$ FA SP busts over last 10-12 years (Zito, Hampton, Schmidt, Zambrano, Santana, Danks, etc,etc) make SP gambles very costly when they don't work.  Money is also the issue, IMO, in limiting starters' innings and pitch counts.  I doubt if the Dodgers had been paying Sandy Koufax the kind of money that free agent pitchers are getting today that they would have had Sandy throwing 300 IP+ seasons and shortening his career in the process. 


    This isn't about creativity which has never been a strong suit of baseball anyway.  For baseball owners, it's about finding something that works and makes economic sense.  

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:49 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Like I said Al, Engel just might be the Ron Karkovice of centerfielders.


    Philosophically, if a team is willing to carry a bad glove just to get an extra bat in the lineup, why not carry a bad bat to get an extra glove in the lineup?


    If Engel played everyday, he is a gold glove contender.  The big question is, will he give away all the runs he saves by striking out an popping up?  I get the impression OUR White Sox are going to stomach Engel in CF in 2018 as much as possible because his glove will aid in the development of the young pitchers.


    In the early 90's, OUR White Sox had a similiar player, Rodney McCray.  Fast has hell, stole tons of bases, covered everything in the OF.  Couldn't hit a lick.  Even his minor league record is weak.  The ever growing pitching staff elimates this type of player.  When your bench is now a one catcher, one IF and one OF, all 3 have to hit a little bit.  Carrying a guy who is strictly speed and defense would force a team to drop that all important 13th pitcher.

    Engel hit well enough in Spring Training to win the CF job and it's not like he was facing tough competition.  Yeah, the Sox like his glove but he won't hold the job long if he can't hit his weight which he couldn't do last year. 
    Unfortunately Luis Robert will miss a couple months which sets his timetable back another half season so the Sox are probably hoping that either Engel or Tilson will be be an at least a tolerable interim solution for 2019-2020.  
    As to the 13th pitcher, was listening to Oral Hersheiser on the Dodger postgame last night on this subject.  He resisted the concept at first, thinking back to his days as a workhorse.  But then he said after a while he realized that clubs had studied this and with the longer postseason now it makes sense to have more fresh pitchers to run in.


    1) Robert was probably 3 years away b4 the injury
    2) Engel and Tilson are not the only options for 2019-2020.  I'm sure new choices will present themsleves this winter
    3) If 2018 is a rebuilding year, who cares what Engel hits.  Enjoy the defense and watch the pitchers develop.  You ain't going to get a blue chip budding superstar at every position.
    4) Ron Karkovice jumped his average a 100 points in his 2nd full year.  If Engel can get his OPS to 620-630, his glove makes he a decent stop gap in 2018.  with all the young pitching, I'm hoping Engel can get at least 1000 innings in CF this summer
    5) You don't need the same stop gap CF every year until Robert is ready.
    6) Your argument sounds like a subliminal cry for Lorenzo Cain

    I don't know about Engel. IF the kid can hit .250 + and provide some gap power, he might be fine for a while at least. Maybe Stephenson and company can work with him to cut that swing down a bit and to be recognize pitches out of the zone. Hope springs eternal, right? I thought for awhile that they might try and move Anderson to center field but I guess that option didn't take off.

    All the I know is that this line-up projects to me to be pretty weak at the bottom of the order and it is a shame that they have to waste two really good hitters in Abreu and Garcia.


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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:43 am

    All the I know is that this line-up projects to me to be pretty weak at the bottom of the order and it is a shame that they have to waste two really good hitters in Abreu and Garcia.


    ***************


    HOW MANY YEARS DID THEY WASTE CHRIS SALE?  THE EXCUSE TO PRETEND TO CONTEND.  LIMP INTO THE PLAYOFFS AND RIDE SALE'S ARM IN GAME'S 1, 4 & 7


    IRONICALLY, SALE IS A FREE AGENT AFTER THE 2019 SEASON.  JUST MIGHT BE THE VETERAN ACE THEY NEED IN THE MAGICAL YEAR OF 2020

    al in cal
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:51 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:All the I know is that this line-up projects to me to be pretty weak at the bottom of the order and it is a shame that they have to waste two really good hitters in Abreu and Garcia.


    ***************


    HOW MANY YEARS DID THEY WASTE CHRIS SALE?  THE EXCUSE TO PRETEND TO CONTEND.  LIMP INTO THE PLAYOFFS AND RIDE SALE'S ARM IN GAME'S 1, 4 & 7


    IRONICALLY, SALE IS A FREE AGENT AFTER THE 2019 SEASON.  JUST MIGHT BE THE VETERAN ACE THEY NEED IN THE MAGICAL YEAR OF 2020

    I am still getting over the loss of Sale and Q. Those trades really hurt me and I still hate Reinny. But I am trying my damnedest to think positive about the young players they got in return but just cannot wrap my self around why they haven't even tried to let some of these young pitchers develop under Cooper's tutelage. LEt them struggle. They've told the entire world that this is a rebuilding team, so the fans should be understanding when these kids struggle.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:13 am

    Al


    50 years ago, Kopech is on the starting rotation.


    Today, sometimes you have to keep a kid down to delay the start of the free agency clock.


    The logic is that he can struggle for 2/3 of a season and he will still learn form the process.  Meanwhile, the team keeps control for an extra year.


    PS, I don't believe Kopech will struggle all that much once called up
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:17 am

    Let them struggle. They've told the entire world that this is a rebuilding team, so the fans should be understanding when these kids struggle.>>
    Money, as always, has a lot to do with it.  Putting a guy up too soon accelerates his free agency by a year.  Also depends on what the issue is.  Kopech had a pretty rough spring (7 walks in 7 IP) and this was against AAA/AA calibre hitters.  He's got to prove he can find home plate consistently in AAA before it makes sense to throw him into the big league fire.  But apparently they will let Fulmer struggle as the 5th starter despite an absolutely brutal spring (13 BB's, 7 HR's in 11 IP).  Fulmer's FA clock has started already so maybe that's why they're throwing him into the fire, but hopefully Cooper has been working on his problems.  If they aren't corrected, this guy could get shredded and lose his confidence.

    al in cal
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by al in cal on Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:22 am

    I really  hate the policy of being afraid of when the free agent clock starts when you are talking about undefined prospects, especially pitchers. The priority to me should be figuring out as early as you can, whether a kid is going to be able to make it in the major leagues and Cooper, I think is the perfect person in the entire organization for doing that. Also with these guys, the kind of role given to the kid should be made as quickly as possible. ONce again, I am talking mostly about pitchers.


        I also agree with Kark about the limited number of innings that these guys were given in camp. I really hate that as a philosophy.

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by Guest on Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:22 pm

    In general, I agree.  I thought the Cubs were idiots when they made Kris Bryant spend the first couple of weeks of his rookie year in AAA.  If the kid is ready, he is ready.  You may get the extra year, but I’m sure the player will remember.

    Now Kopech might be justified going to AAA because the extra seasoning will help

    As for innings, some guys can handle 250+.  Others are lucky to last for 200.  A smart team would figure out which is which.  Not dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.  If you got a stud, ride him.
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    alohafri
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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

    Post by alohafri on Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:50 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:In general, I agree.  I thought the Cubs were idiots when they made Kris Bryant spend the first couple of weeks of his rookie year in AAA.  If the kid is ready, he is ready.  You may get the extra year, but I’m sure the player will remember.

    Now Kopech might be justified going to AAA because the extra seasoning will help

    As for innings, some guys can handle 250+.  Others are lucky to last for 200.  A smart team would figure out which is which.  Not dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator.  If you got a stud, ride him.

    Everyone is looking for their next job. The player and agent want in the bigs as soon as possible so the player can become a free agent as soon as possible. The team wants the player to stick around as long as possible. It's always "us vs. them."

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    Re: Engel is the CF, Cordell farmed out

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