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    Lincecum anybody?

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:56 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    FALSE CONCLUSION.  IMPROVED DEFENSE HELPS A YOUNG STAFF DEVELOP WHICH IS PART OF THE PLAN
    FALSE MATH.  CAIN WAS LIKE 2ND OR 3RD DEFENSIVELY.  PLUS, LIKE ALL OF BASEBALL, FEILDING ISN'T LINEAR.  NOW IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE CHEAP AND REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT WIN IN 2018 ARE MEANINGLESS, THEN JUST PLAY ADAM ENGEL IN CF.  BUT YOUR AGAINST THAT TOO.  THE ABSOLUTE DUMBEST THING TO DO IS HAND THE JOB TO LEURY GARCIA.  IF SERVES ZERO PURPOSE TO LET THIS GUY GET ON THE JOB TRAINING FOR A YEAR OR TWO JUST TO CUT HIM THE SECOND A REAL PROSPECT EMERGES FROM THE MINORS.  LEURY GARCIA S/B THE LAST RESORT AND FOR SOME STRANGE REASON, YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE.
    AGAIN, YOU COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTAND THE POINT OF CAIN.  NEVER CLAIMED HE MAKES THEM AN INSTANT WINNER.  MORE LIKE HE FILLS A NEED.  HE HELPS WITH THE REBUILDING PROCESS WITH NOT ONLY HIS DEFENSE, BUT HIS EXPERIENCE.  IF GUYS LIKE MONCADA AND KOPECH DEVELOP RAPIDLY, YOU ARE NOW IN A POSITION TO CONTEND INSTEAD OF BEING CAUGHT NAPPING.  CAIN ONLY COSTS MONEY.  AGAIN, IF MONEY IS THE REAL PROBLEM, PLAY ADAM ENGEL
    ANOTHER REASON TO SIGN CAIN!!!  3 YEAR FRONT LOADED DEAL WITH A 4TH YEAR OPTION.  MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD AND CREATES A WIN-WIN FOR THE WHITE SOX.  UNLESS YOUR TITO POLO.

    If the Sox could get Cain at $ 55-60 million guaranteed for next three years plus a  $ 4 million buyout, it could be worth thinking about since Robert may not be quite ready for 2020 and Cain might have enough left in the tank in 2020 to be useful.  Although I'm very suspicious about what happens to speed guys like him in their mid 30's. He'll be 32 in early 2018.
    But right now, Cain's agent has to be thinking 5 year deal like Fowler got last year.  He may settle for 4 years but the market would have to look much bleaker for a 3 year deal and the Sox would hardly be the only team bidding on him for a 3 year deal.  Bottom line is that if Cain is as essential as you seem to think, then the Sox would have to step to the plate with a compelling $$ and yrly term deal to get him.

    Again you misread what I am saying.  How many times do you have to spell out that Cain would be a perfect 3 year stop gap.  His defense helps the developing young pitcher staff.  His offense is just what the team will need if things develop quickly.  Sounds like a WIN WIN to me

      In other words something that will likely be an albatross deal by 2021-2022.  Until/unless the kind of sweetheart deal you want to make occurs,

    Until Cain signs elsewhere, or Hahn finds a better, or at least comparable, option.....  

    , then the Sox really are in the audition game for 2018-2019.  Which includes not only Leury Garcia, but Tilson if he can ever get on the field again, Engel if he can ever hit, Ryan Cordell if he can field, and Tito Polo if he's for real. 

    Your little audition of stiffs doesn't occur until the spring.  Leury should be the last resort.  Tilson should go to AAA after all the time he has missed.  Engel should start because of his defense.  Cordell needs to kick as in spring or else its AAA.  Tito Polo probably isn't ready yet.

    While good fielding in theory yields better pitching, sometimes the connection isn't that strong.  Astros were 29th in fielding, 6th in pitching this year.  Reds were 4th in fielding, 30th in pitching.

    Excuse me Mr Baseball expert, but its pitching AND DEFENSE!!!!  sure there are exception to every rule.  that doesn't invalidate the rule

      As noted before, pitchers have to get used to the fact that the best fielding guys won't play if they can't hit. 
     When was this fucked up theory ever noted?!?!?!?!?  You do realize this is a team game.  Not 25 variables thrown into a locker-room


    Mark Buehrle won quite a few games working quickly, making the batter hit his pitch and trusting his fielders to do the job
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:44 pm

    Again you misread what I am saying.  How many times do you have to spell out that Cain would be a perfect 3 year stop gap.  His defense helps the developing young pitcher staff.  His offense is just what the team will need if things develop quickly.  Sounds like a WIN WIN to me  >>
    I'm not as high on Cain as you are.  His power is modest, his OBP is highly dependant on BA which has fluctuated year to year in his career, and both his offensive and defensive value depends a lot on speed which often fades in a guy's mid-30's.  by 2020, I see a 34 year old Cain as basically an average CFer.
    He'd be an adequate stopgap if Luis Robert doesn't develop as fast as hoped, but

    $ 18-20 mil per is an expensive stopgap. 

    Sox also have to consider their 2019-2021 free agent budget.  In 2019, Bryce Harper and Manny Machado are FA's, in 2020 it's Altuve, Boeggerts, Rendon, Ozuna (CFer), Hamilton (CFer), Hicks (CFer), Goldschmidt,  Eaton, Sale,  Bumgarner.  In 2021, it's Trout (CFer), Kershaw, Bradley (CFer), Taylor(CFer), Mookie Betts, DeGrom, and possibly Stanton. 

    That's some serious talent who will still be 28-31 years old.  Young Sox prospects will all be making pre-arb or early arb year salaries in 2020-2021 so the Sox can afford to go after some top-shelf FA's in those years. No need to get over-anxious about committing $ 60 million to a 32 year old in 2018. Maybe better to keep the $$ arsenal fairly dry so that the Sox can afford to be in the hunt for those bigger, better, younger FA's in 2019-2021. 




    Excuse me Mr Baseball expert, but its pitching AND DEFENSE!!!!  sure there are exception to every rule.  that doesn't invalidate the rule When was this fucked up theory ever noted?!?!?!?!?  You do realize this is a team game.  Not 25 variables thrown into a locker-room.. Mark Buehrle won quite a few games working quickly, making the batter hit his pitch and trusting his fielders to do the job
    Buehrle and other low K, pitch-to-contact guys who were successful got batters swinging at stuff just off center enough for weak contact and lots of routine outs.  Pitchers can't get the idea they can center pitches and then just rely on A-level fielders to make great plays to bail them out.

    If a guy is a A fielder and a C hitter, he may play over a B hitter, F fielder.  But A fielders, D/F hitters don't play much.  So pitchers will have to get used to a variety of A to C level fielders with an occasional D one (like Jose Abreu) mixed in. 
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:15 pm

    rmapasad wrote:Again you misread what I am saying.  How many times do you have to spell out that Cain would be a perfect 3 year stop gap.  His defense helps the developing young pitcher staff.  His offense is just what the team will need if things develop quickly.  Sounds like a WIN WIN to me  >>
    I'm not as high on Cain as you are.  His power is modest, his OBP is highly dependant on BA which has fluctuated year to year in his career, and both his offensive and defensive value depends a lot on speed which often fades in a guy's mid-30's.  by 2020, I see a 34 year old Cain as basically an average CFer.
    He'd be an adequate stopgap if Luis Robert doesn't develop as fast as hoped, but

    $ 18-20 mil per is an expensive stopgap. 

    Sox also have to consider their 2019-2021 free agent budget.  In 2019, Bryce Harper and Manny Machado are FA's, in 2020 it's Altuve, Boeggerts, Rendon, Ozuna (CFer), Hamilton (CFer), Hicks (CFer), Goldschmidt,  Eaton, Sale,  Bumgarner.  In 2021, it's Trout (CFer), Kershaw, Bradley (CFer), Taylor(CFer), Mookie Betts, DeGrom, and possibly Stanton. 

    That's some serious talent who will still be 28-31 years old.  Young Sox prospects will all be making pre-arb or early arb year salaries in 2020-2021 so the Sox can afford to go after some top-shelf FA's in those years. No need to get over-anxious about committing $ 60 million to a 32 year old in 2018. Maybe better to keep the $$ arsenal fairly dry so that the Sox can afford to be in the hunt for those bigger, better, younger FA's in 2019-2021. 

    I must admit this is a very valid argument.  Far much better than Leury and Tilson might not suck as much tommorrow as they do today.  I see Ozuna is a gold glover.  

    Excuse me Mr Baseball expert, but its pitching AND DEFENSE!!!!  sure there are exception to every rule.  that doesn't invalidate the rule When was this fucked up theory ever noted?!?!?!?!?  You do realize this is a team game.  Not 25 variables thrown into a locker-room.. Mark Buehrle won quite a few games working quickly, making the batter hit his pitch and trusting his fielders to do the job
    Buehrle and other low K, pitch-to-contact guys who were successful got batters swinging at stuff just off center enough for weak contact and lots of routine outs.  Pitchers can't get the idea they can center pitches and then just rely on A-level fielders to make great plays to bail them out.

    If a guy is a A fielder and a C hitter, he may play over a B hitter, F fielder.  But A fielders, D/F hitters don't play much.  So pitchers will have to get used to a variety of A to C level fielders with an occasional D one (like Jose Abreu) mixed in. 


    And we all know how the White Sox supported Buehrle with all those gold glovers behind him.  Pitchers need to learn the Art of Pitching.  Not whatever fucked up idea your promoting just to deliberately disagree with me.  PITCHING & DEFENSE were considered important long b4 a bunch of self appointed geniuses started plugging 1.8 into spreadsheets just to get their formulas to work.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:08 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    And we all know how the White Sox supported Buehrle with all those gold glovers behind him.  Pitchers need to learn the Art of Pitching.  Not whatever fucked up idea your promoting just to deliberately disagree with me.  PITCHING & DEFENSE were considered important long b4 a bunch of self appointed geniuses started plugging 1.8 into spreadsheets just to get their formulas to work.

    Rather than twist themselves into a pretzel about this CF dilemna, the Sox may want to consider an option right under their nose: Yoan Moncada.  He has the tools to play the role: speed, arm, and good baseball instincts for the most part.   He's struggled a bit with footwork at 2b, so why not give Sanchez yet another shot at holding onto 2b with Moncada in CF ? 
    2018 is the perfect year for more experimentation and trying to see who will fit where in the future. May also be a time to see how Eloy Jiminez looks in a 1b glove since he reportedly doesn't cover ground in well in OF. 
    By maximizing the value of their current resources, Sox may avoid the need to spend lots of $$$ in free agency to fill holes with adequate guys and save the big $$$ for the real studs like Harper, MAchado, Kershaw, etc. 
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:08 am

    Agree that it might be best to move Moncada off 2B


    1) I believe Yolmer is a hidden gem and OUR White Sox would benefit from having a perrenial gold glove candidate at a key defensive position
    2) given the wealth of OF prospects, I'd move Moncada to 3B


    Also agree that Jiminez might be better off at 1B.  However, this doesn't happen until Abreau is moved.  Which may not happen


    As far has going cheap as possible in 2018 to jump into the 2019 free agent market with both feet, my concerns to that would be


    1) will they really jump in?
    2) more importantly, how high would they go
    3) would they go too far


    That said, a 2020 return of Chris Sale just might be worth the wait.


    PS, if the plan for now to spring training is to rummage thru the scrap heap, I would target Adam Engel for about 1000 innings in CF.  That would be 70% of the playing time.

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