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    Lincecum anybody?

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:19 pm

    Word has it he wants to make a comeback and plans to audition for 20 or so teams

    Rumor has it most of the deals will be of the minor league variety.  OUR White Sox would have room for him on the 40 man

    Spare me the rebuilding crap.  No one wants to see young Dylan Covey start again.  For one, he ain’t that young.  Two, he ain’t that good.

    Shame we can’t talk Buehrle into a comeback
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    alohafri
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by alohafri on Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:58 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Word has it he wants to make a comeback and plans to audition for 20 or so teams

    Rumor has it most of the deals will be of the minor league variety.  OUR White Sox would have room for him on the 40 man

    Spare me the rebuilding crap.  No one wants to see young Dylan Covey start again.  For one, he ain’t that young.  Two, he ain’t that good.

    Shame we can’t talk Buehrle into a comeback

    I'd take a look at him.
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    Hawk Harrelson
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:23 am

    Sign him.  It doesn't matter.


    This team had better show some progress THIS SEASON.


    Near .500.


    This is the last season they can call REBUILD.


    Team has been shit far too long.


    Win Now-Reload was the battle cry of idiots!!


    Murph was General Custer!!
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:29 pm

    Hawk Harrelson wrote:Sign him.  It doesn't matter.
    This team had better show some progress THIS SEASON.
    Near .500.
    This is the last season they can call REBUILD.
    Team has been shit far too long.
    Win Now-Reload was the battle cry of idiots!!
    Murph was General Custer!!


    Took Cubs 3 years and Astros 4 years to complete their rebuilds before they reached the playoffs. This is only second year of Sox's rebuild and the guys Hahn traded for this past year likely aren't going to reach their peaks for another 2-3 years.  Maybe the Murphy types want to rush things and start win-now as soon as possible.  Don't put any stock in 2018's wins for one simple reason:  80% of the 25 man roster of 2018 won't be here 2-3 years from now.  Most of this year's team will be seat-warmers just trying to keep their careers alive and earn a few more paychecks.  The real deals arrive in late 2019/early 2020.
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:10 am

    You still have to play the games and field a team.


    I also suspect that running a major league organization is a wee bit more complicated than assemblying a fantasy league team
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 am

    Hawk Harrelson wrote:Sign him.  It doesn't matter.


    This team had better show some progress THIS SEASON.


    Near .500.


    This is the last season they can call REBUILD.


    Team has been shit far too long.


    Win Now-Reload was the battle cry of idiots!!


    Murph was General Custer!!


    And this is why the KARK prays the White Sox could somehow land Lorenzo Cain!!!!


    Jiminez should be up in the 2nd half.  and when Avisail Garcia proves BABIP to be bullshit, then the White Sox have a real outfield.


    Anderson and Moncado will prove to be the new Whitaker and Trammel.  Zach Collins should also be ready by years end and if the white Sox keep Abreau, there is your real lineup for 2019!!!!


    Just need to work on the pitching side.  Giolito and Lopez are already up.  Kopech will lead the truck load of prospect coming in the 2nd half.  Then just buy an Ace next winter, add a healthy Rodan, and now your a contender!!!!
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:54 am

    The Sox can rebuild and not totally suck.
    The Sox need to get back on the radar in this town.....period.
    .500 would be nice.
    I sure as Hell am not advocating any kind of Win Now-Reload.  That was insane.
    A TOTAL FAILURE.
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:48 am

    Hawk Harrelson wrote:The Sox can rebuild and not totally suck.
    The Sox need to get back on the radar in this town.....period.
    .500 would be nice.
    I sure as Hell am not advocating any kind of Win Now-Reload.  That was insane.
    A TOTAL FAILURE.


    Exactly!!!!!


    And nothing the matter with targeting a veteran or three at positions where the club is weak and no real prospect is available.


    Plus, not all these kids are going to turn out great.  Mike Kopech might end up the next Steve Dalkowski instead of Nolan Ryan.  Eloy Jiminez could be Willie Garcia instead of willie Stargell.  Moncada could be Joe Schmoe instead of Joe Morgan....


    the KARK ain't putting up a win total because just one James Shield can blow that out of the water.  Just saying the guys that are suppose to lead the youth movement need to show in 2018 that they are capable of doing so.  that means anderson, moncada, giolito for sure.  as well as avisail garcia proving to be for real, rodon coming back healthy and effective and at least one other kid pitcher proving he can start.  finding a place for Yolmer Sanchez would also be nice
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:19 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    And this is why the KARK prays the White Sox could somehow land Lorenzo Cain!!!!

    Jiminez should be up in the 2nd half.  and when Avisail Garcia proves BABIP to be bullshit, then the White Sox have a real outfield.
    Anderson and Moncado will prove to be the new Whitaker and Trammel.  Zach Collins should also be ready by years end and if the white Sox keep Abreau, there is your real lineup for 2019!!!!
    Just need to work on the pitching side.  Giolito and Lopez are already up.  Kopech will lead the truck load of prospect coming in the 2nd half.  Then just buy an Ace next winter, add a healthy Rodan, and now your a contender!!!!


    If the Sox contend for playoffs in 2019 that means their rebuild will be faster than playoff teams in recent history who went through rebuilds before contending for the playoffs (Cubs, Astros, Royals, Giants, Twins, Indians, Pirates, Orioles, Reds, Rockies, Braves, Tigers, Mets, Nationals)... But the Sox will defy the odds and do it faster than these other 14 teams !!! 
     Rebuilders turn into contenders when most of their core young players have had at least 2-3 full seasons in majors to mature. Of top Sox prospects (Moncada, Jiminez, Gioloto, Lopez, Kopech, Hansen, Robert, Collins, Cease ) exactly ZERO of them will have two full seasons in majors by 2019.
    This rebuild will take how long it takes and unrealistic timetables can be counterproductive.  Look at what happened when Sox management became impatient and cut the 2013-2014 rebuild short. This latest nonsense about trading Gioloto and another prospect for Manny Machado shows that impatience might still be there. 
    As long as Kenny Williams is around the Sox will always be itching to get the win-now machine cranked up with Kenny doing his usual over-estimating of Sox talent. Hopefully this time Hahn can contain Kenny and promote a more patient, realistic timetable for contending both to Reinsdorf and fan base. 
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:14 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Hawk Harrelson wrote:The Sox can rebuild and not totally suck.
    The Sox need to get back on the radar in this town.....period.
    .500 would be nice.
    I sure as Hell am not advocating any kind of Win Now-Reload.  That was insane.
    A TOTAL FAILURE.


    Exactly!!!!!


    And nothing the matter with targeting a veteran or three at positions where the club is weak and no real prospect is available.


    Plus, not all these kids are going to turn out great.  Mike Kopech might end up the next Steve Dalkowski instead of Nolan Ryan.  Eloy Jiminez could be Willie Garcia instead of willie Stargell.  Moncada could be Joe Schmoe instead of Joe Morgan....


    the KARK ain't putting up a win total because just one James Shield can blow that out of the water.  Just saying the guys that are suppose to lead the youth movement need to show in 2018 that they are capable of doing so.  that means anderson, moncada, giolito for sure.  as well as avisail garcia proving to be for real, rodon coming back healthy and effective and at least one other kid pitcher proving he can start.  finding a place for Yolmer Sanchez would also be nice


    Yes, it would be nice to see some progress from the younger guys particularly Anderson who will be 25 this coming year.  But I wouldn't be surprised to see what might seem like some regression from Gioloto whose major league ERA was far better than his AAA numbers.  Plus he's only 23.   What the Sox need to do is allow these players to develop at the pace that is normal and as Avi Garcia showed, sometimes it takes a full 3 years in the majors before a player can be expected to perform like he was expected.  Rushing guys or becoming impatient with them happens when a team expects to contend and win-now.  By not setting unrealistic timetables for team contention, the club can relieve some pressure from itself and the players to perform miracles at a time when they're not completely ready.
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:23 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Hawk Harrelson wrote:The Sox can rebuild and not totally suck.
    The Sox need to get back on the radar in this town.....period.
    .500 would be nice.
    I sure as Hell am not advocating any kind of Win Now-Reload.  That was insane.
    A TOTAL FAILURE.


    Exactly!!!!!


    And nothing the matter with targeting a veteran or three at positions where the club is weak and no real prospect is available.


    Plus, not all these kids are going to turn out great.  Mike Kopech might end up the next Steve Dalkowski instead of Nolan Ryan.  Eloy Jiminez could be Willie Garcia instead of willie Stargell.  Moncada could be Joe Schmoe instead of Joe Morgan....

    Sox have put their eggs into the Moncada, Jiminez, Gioloto, Kopech baskets.  If they turn out to be busts, the Sox are fucked, plain and simple and all the Wellington Castillos and Lorenzo Cains can't save the day.  Now if the Sox are willing to spend to get Bryce Harper next year, that's another matter.  But other than relatively cheap (under $ 8 million, 2 years max committents) contracts for 2018 vets to fill out the pitching staff needs, I see no reason to try to "fill holes" with 31 + year olds this season to stretch for a .500 season in 2018. 
    Let the guys who are still trying to prove themselves major leaguers (like Tilson, Sanchez, DAvidson, Leury, etc) get the chance to prove it this year.   No vet other than the expensive 30+ year old FA's who want 4-5 year deals will do that much better than they will. 

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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:05 pm

    Try looking at the big picture and spare us your false choices, not to mention the double talk regarding Garcia and Davidson.  You said yourself Garcia projects as a 690 ops guy and you know that sucks. Davidson looks like a HR or nothing 220 hitting DH and takes AB away from Yolmer.  It’s Yolmer that deserves the shot and Cain doesnt interfere with that. In fact,  with Cain, Yolmer and Engel in the late innings, you are giving your young pitchers a defense.  Something young pitchers need
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:16 pm

    Nobody is trying to stretch to 500 with over the hill vets.  That’s just faulty interpetation on your part.  What real Sox fans want is an expanding core of quality players so they can contend sooner rather than later.  Cain adds to that core.  Your the only one that thinks Cain only has one good year left. And if he Sox do shit, so what.  I’d rather see Cain than Cody Asche.
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:57 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Try looking at the big picture and spare us your false choices, not to mention the double talk regarding Garcia and Davidson.  You said yourself Garcia projects as a 690 ops guy and you know that sucks. Davidson looks like a HR or nothing 220 hitting DH and takes AB away from Yolmer.  It’s Yolmer that deserves the shot and Cain doesnt interfere with that. In fact,  with Cain, Yolmer and Engel in the late innings, you are giving your young pitchers a defense.  Something young pitchers need

    While I don't expect much from Leury or Davidson in 2018, the examples of Avi Garcia and Sanchez (who looked like lost causes going into 2017) shows that given another shot sometimes guys in their mid-20's can prove to be useful major leaguers after all. 2018 can provide another window of opportunity for marginal guys in mid 20's to step up and prove they belong.  Case in point: Marwin Gonzalez who toiled away with a bad Houston team as a low 700's guy from ages 24-27, then suddenly erupts with a 900 OPS at age 28 and becomes an integral part of their WS winning team.  

    As to Cain, I'm confused with your position.   At one point you agreed that if he wanted 4 years, $ 70 mil +, then forget it.  Yet, you keep Jonesing for him as though the Sox should do whatever it takes to get him.  He is obviously looking for Dexter Fowler type deal right now. 
    If Cain can be obtained on a 3 year package then he might be worth thinking about.  By why keep beating his drum unless he's clearly ready to accept that kind of deal ?
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:16 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Nobody is trying to stretch to 500 with over the hill vets.  That’s just faulty interpetation on your part.  What real Sox fans want is an expanding core of quality players so they can contend sooner rather than later.  Cain adds to that core.  Your the only one that thinks Cain only has one good year left. And if he Sox do shit, so what.  I’d rather see Cain than Cody Asche.

    As I asked before, what is the rush to "contend sooner rather than later" ?  What makes the Sox so special that they HAVE limit their bad rebuild years to only two when history shows teams who do a total teardown will take 3 - 5 years to get back into the playoffs ? The Sox traded their best assets last year for guys that were 20-22 years old, meaning it won't be until 2020-2022 that they'll have two-three full years in majors under their belt.  That is particularly important for pitchers who often take at least that long to mature.  Why make ownership and the fan base overly impatient with the process by trying for unrealistic timetables ?
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:52 pm

    I disagree with your premise


    there is no unrealistic timetable


    there is no rushing.


    Just common sense signing of vets that can contribute in places where the White Sox have nobody.


    Leury Garcia is a nobody.  Kevan Smith is a nobody.  Dylan Covey is nobody.  These are are guys that I want gone.  And I highly doubt they'd ever be missed.


    With luck, the white sox can contend in 2019.  If the young core takes a while to develop, than 2022.


    Nobody here as suggested dumping the youth movement if they don't win it all by 2020.


    So spare me the history lesson.  I never heard of a World Champion with everybody under 30.
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:58 pm

     By why keep beating his drum unless he's clearly ready to accept that kind of deal ?



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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:58 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:I disagree with your premise


    there is no unrealistic timetable


    there is no rushing.


    Just common sense signing of vets that can contribute in places where the White Sox have nobody.


    Leury Garcia is a nobody.  Kevan Smith is a nobody.  Dylan Covey is nobody.  These are are guys that I want gone.  And I highly doubt they'd ever be missed.


    With luck, the white sox can contend in 2019.  If the young core takes a while to develop, than 2022.


    Nobody here as suggested dumping the youth movement if they don't win it all by 2020.


    So spare me the history lesson.  I never heard of a World Champion with everybody under 30.

    Saying "contend sooner rather than later" has the sound of impatience particularly since the teardown just started a year ago.    White Sox were ranked 29th in pitching WAR in the majors last year.  Expecting the core of Sox young pitching (Gioloto, Lopez, Kopech, Hanson, Cease, Fullmer, Dunning) to cure that by 2019 will be a real tall order since they'll all be 23-25 years old and none will have been in the majors two full seasons .
    2018, IMO, is another "sort them out" year.  Figure out which 24-27 year olds (Garcia trio, Narvaez, Sanchez, Davidson, Delmonico, Anderson) are legit major leaguers plus which of the 20-23 year olds could be stars or at least starters of the future.   2019 is when the pieces of a contender start being assembled, and that may be the time to snag a couple of expensive vets near enough to their peak years to be useful in 2020-2021. Those are the years which are more realistic to consider the Sox a legit contender. 
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:13 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:I disagree with your premise


    there is no unrealistic timetable


    there is no rushing.


    Just common sense signing of vets that can contribute in places where the White Sox have nobody.


    Leury Garcia is a nobody.  Kevan Smith is a nobody.  Dylan Covey is nobody.  These are are guys that I want gone.  And I highly doubt they'd ever be missed.


    With luck, the white sox can contend in 2019.  If the young core takes a while to develop, than 2022.


    Nobody here as suggested dumping the youth movement if they don't win it all by 2020.


    So spare me the history lesson.  I never heard of a World Champion with everybody under 30.

    Saying "contend sooner rather than later" has the sound of impatience particularly since the teardown just started a year ago.    White Sox were ranked 29th in pitching WAR in the majors last year.  Expecting the core of Sox young pitching (Gioloto, Lopez, Kopech, Hanson, Cease, Fullmer, Dunning) to cure that by 2019 will be a real tall order since they'll all be 23-25 years old and none will have been in the majors two full seasons .
    2018, IMO, is another "sort them out" year.

    SO WHAT!!!!  NOBODY IS SUGGESTING THEY GET OUT RIGHT RELEASED IF MISS THE TIME TABLE.  SOME PITCHERS ARE READY RIGHT AWAY.  SOME TAKE A FEW YEARS.  BUT ALL WOULD BENEFIT FROM THE WORLD CLASS DEFENSE A LORENZO CAIN WOULD PROVIDE.  SO YOU IDEA THAT THE WHITE SOX SHOULD RIGHT OFF THE NEXT 3 YEARS AND CLAIMING THEY NEED TO SSE IF LEURY GARCIA CAN GO FROM A C MINUS PLAYER TOA C PLUS PLAYER IS RATHER SILLY


      Figure out which 24-27 year olds (Garcia trio, Narvaez, Sanchez, Davidson, Delmonico, Anderson) are legit major leaguers plus which of the 20-23 year olds could be stars or at least starters of the future.   2019 is when the pieces of a contender start being assembled, and that may be the time to snag a couple of expensive vets near enough to their peak years to be useful in 2020-2021. Those are the years which are more realistic to consider the Sox a legit contender. 


    I BELIEVE THIS STEP IS DONE.  THEY DON'T HAVE A CF/LEADOFF IN THEIR TOP 30 THAT IS WHY YOU GET CAIN.  COLLINS WILL NEED HELP AT CATCHER, AND HAHN JUST SIGNED HIS MENTOR.  THIS NOTION OF YOURS THAT YOU DON'T FILL HOLES IS JUST PLAIN SILLY.  SO IS YOUR NOTION THE WHITE SOX SHOULD JUST SIT STILL UNTIL THE KIDS YOUR LEGITIMACY REQUIREMENT.  YOU CAN'T EVEN CALL AVISAIL GARCIA LEGIT.  HOW MANY YEARS WILL IT TAKE FOR MONCADA AND ANDERSON AND COLLINS AND JIMINEZ TO PROVE LEGITIMACY IN YOUR EYES!?!?!?!  YOU CLAIM TO KNOW ALL ABOUT BASEBALL STATISTICS BUT CAN'T MAKE A SIMPLE DECISION.  BY TIME YOU ARE DONE PLAYING THE LEURY GARCIA'S OF THE WORLD, MONCADA AND KOPECH WILL BE FREE AGENTS AND THE WHITE SOX WILL START ALL OVER AGAIN.

    IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT A DEPTH CHART, THE LINEUP IS QUITE OBVIOUS.  AND IT DOESN'T CONTAIN A MAJORITY OF THE QUAD A CRAP YOU THINK IS ESSENTIAL.  2019 IS VERY PLAUSIBLE IF ONE LOOKS AT THE ACTUALLY ORGANZIATION INSTEAD OF CHERRY PICKING BASEBALL HISTORY AND MAKE BELIEVE STATS.
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:18 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    I BELIEVE THIS STEP IS DONE.  THEY DON'T HAVE A CF/LEADOFF IN THEIR TOP 30 THAT IS WHY YOU GET CAIN.  COLLINS WILL NEED HELP AT CATCHER, AND HAHN JUST SIGNED HIS MENTOR.  THIS NOTION OF YOURS THAT YOU DON'T FILL HOLES IS JUST PLAIN SILLY.  SO IS YOUR NOTION THE WHITE SOX SHOULD JUST SIT STILL UNTIL THE KIDS YOUR LEGITIMACY REQUIREMENT.  YOU CAN'T EVEN CALL AVISAIL GARCIA LEGIT.  HOW MANY YEARS WILL IT TAKE FOR MONCADA AND ANDERSON AND COLLINS AND JIMINEZ TO PROVE LEGITIMACY IN YOUR EYES!?!?!?!  YOU CLAIM TO KNOW ALL ABOUT BASEBALL STATISTICS BUT CAN'T MAKE A SIMPLE DECISION.  BY TIME YOU ARE DONE PLAYING THE LEURY GARCIA'S OF THE WORLD, MONCADA AND KOPECH WILL BE FREE AGENTS AND THE WHITE SOX WILL START ALL OVER AGAIN.

    IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT A DEPTH CHART, THE LINEUP IS QUITE OBVIOUS.  AND IT DOESN'T CONTAIN A MAJORITY OF THE QUAD A CRAP YOU THINK IS ESSENTIAL.  2019 IS VERY PLAUSIBLE IF ONE LOOKS AT THE ACTUALLY ORGANZIATION INSTEAD OF CHERRY PICKING BASEBALL HISTORY AND MAKE BELIEVE STATS.

    Luis Robert is a leadoff/CF type and in 2020 at age 23, I think he'll be as good  as a 34 year old Lorenzo Cain. By 2021, he'll be better than Cain.  Plus, the $ 35 million which would be flushed down the toilet on Cain in 2020-2021 could be put to much better use elsewhere.
    While 2019 might still be a bit premature for Sox to jump into FA bidding wars, it could make sense to snag 30-32 year old pitchers who stand a decent chance of being helpful in 2020-2021 at ages 31-33.   Don't buy that the Sox are so special and unique that they can just ignore the history of what it takes to rebuild from scratch.
     By 2019, Moncada, Gioloto and Lopez will be the only ones with even as much as one full year of major league experience.  The vets with two years or more will be Abreu, Avi Garcia,Anderson and Rodon, each of which have question marks. I agree that the Quad A types (Delmonico, Tilson, Leury, Narvaez, Davidson, Wily, Sanchez, Cordell, Gillaspie) may basically be no more than utility players at best and goners at worst.   It won't be until 2020 that Jiminez, Collins, Hansen, Kopich and Cease have at least one full season under their belts. 
    So yes, with all these question marks, 2019 looks real shaky as a contention year.  So why spend big money in 2018 that will be a waste for the next two years and possibly turn into an albatross by 2020-2021 ?     Let the cheap Quad-A types just mentioned fight it out over the next season to see which will survive and also see realistically what can be expected of Avi Garcia, Anderson, Abreu and Rodon going forward.  By the end of 2018, Sox will see what kind of buyers they need to be in 2019. Right now, it makes no sense to dabbling in the big $$ free agent market for 31-33 year olds.
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:23 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    I BELIEVE THIS STEP IS DONE.  THEY DON'T HAVE A CF/LEADOFF IN THEIR TOP 30 THAT IS WHY YOU GET CAIN.  COLLINS WILL NEED HELP AT CATCHER, AND HAHN JUST SIGNED HIS MENTOR.  THIS NOTION OF YOURS THAT YOU DON'T FILL HOLES IS JUST PLAIN SILLY.  SO IS YOUR NOTION THE WHITE SOX SHOULD JUST SIT STILL UNTIL THE KIDS YOUR LEGITIMACY REQUIREMENT.  YOU CAN'T EVEN CALL AVISAIL GARCIA LEGIT.  HOW MANY YEARS WILL IT TAKE FOR MONCADA AND ANDERSON AND COLLINS AND JIMINEZ TO PROVE LEGITIMACY IN YOUR EYES!?!?!?!  YOU CLAIM TO KNOW ALL ABOUT BASEBALL STATISTICS BUT CAN'T MAKE A SIMPLE DECISION.  BY TIME YOU ARE DONE PLAYING THE LEURY GARCIA'S OF THE WORLD, MONCADA AND KOPECH WILL BE FREE AGENTS AND THE WHITE SOX WILL START ALL OVER AGAIN.

    IF YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT A DEPTH CHART, THE LINEUP IS QUITE OBVIOUS.  AND IT DOESN'T CONTAIN A MAJORITY OF THE QUAD A CRAP YOU THINK IS ESSENTIAL.  2019 IS VERY PLAUSIBLE IF ONE LOOKS AT THE ACTUALLY ORGANZIATION INSTEAD OF CHERRY PICKING BASEBALL HISTORY AND MAKE BELIEVE STATS.

    Luis Robert is a leadoff/CF type and in 2020 at age 23, I think he'll be as good  as a 34 year old Lorenzo Cain.

    THE MAN HAD 75 AT BATS IN ROOKIE BALL.  YOU CAN'T TELL ANYTHING ABOUT OVER THAN HE IS VERY PHYSICALLY GIFTED AND LOOKS LIKE HE KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THE GAME

     By 2021, he'll be better than Cain.

    WHO ARE YOU NOSTRADUMBASS?!?!!?

      Plus, the $ 35 million which would be flushed down the toilet on Cain in 2020-2021 could be put to much better use elsewhere.

    CHECK THE CURRENT MARKET TRENDS.  TOUGH YEAR FOR FREE AGENTS.  SOX MIGHT JUST GET HIM FOR 3 YEARS.  PLUS THE KARK HAS NEVER EVER ADVOCATED A 4 YEAR DEAL.  NOR HAVE I ADVOCATED PURSUING CAIN AT ALL COSTS

    While 2019 might still be a bit premature for Sox to jump into FA bidding wars,

    AGAIN, YOU COMPLETELY MISREPRESENT WHAT I AM POSTING.  WHEN THE HELL DID I SAY JUMP INTO BIDDING WARS.  WHEN DID I SAY THAT 18 OR 19 IS WHEN WE BUY A PENNANT.  AND YOU CLAIM I LIKE TO DISTORT THE ARGUMENTS OTHER OTHERS.  WELL BUDDY, YOU TAKE THE GOLD AT DISTORTING A TOPIC.

     it could make sense to snag 30-32 year old pitchers who stand a decent chance of being helpful in 2020-2021 at ages 31-33.   Don't buy that the Sox are so special and unique that they can just ignore the history of what it takes to rebuild from scratch.

    REBUILDING TEAMS USE VETERANS TO FILL HOLES ALL THE TIME.  YOU DO REALIZE THE WHITE SOX LACK A CF LEADOFF GUY DONTCHA.  YOU DO REALIZE YOUNG PITCHERS NEED A QUALITY DEFENSE BEHIND THEM TO HELP THEIR DEVELOPMENT DONTCHA.  YOU DO REALIZE CAIN SOLVES BOTH THOSE PROBLEMS

     By 2019, Moncada, Gioloto and Lopez will be the only ones with even as much as one full year of major league experience.  The vets with two years or more will be Abreu, Avi Garcia,Anderson and Rodon, each of which have question marks.

    EVERYBODY IS A QUESTION MARK IN YOUR EYES

     I agree that the Quad A types (Delmonico, Tilson, Leury, Narvaez, Davidson, Wily, Sanchez, Cordell, Gillaspie) may basically be no more than utility players at best and goners at worst.   It won't be until 2020 that Jiminez, Collins, Hansen, Kopich and Cease have at least one full season under their belts. 

    JIMINEZ COULD BE UP THIS JULY.  DITTO KOPECH  COLLINS THIS SEPTEMBER.  WHY CAN'T THEY KICK ASS FROM DAY ONE?

    So yes, with all these question marks, 2019 looks real shaky as a contention year.  So why spend big money in 2018 that will be a waste for the next two years and possibly turn into an albatross by 2020-2021 ? 

    AGAIN WITH THE FALSE PREMISE.  HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REFUTE THIS?!?!?

    Let the cheap Quad-A types just mentioned fight it out over the next season to see which will survive and also see realistically what can be expected of Avi Garcia, Anderson, Abreu and Rodon going forward.  By the end of 2018, Sox will see what kind of buyers they need to be in 2019. Right now, it makes no sense to dabbling in the big $$ free agent market for 31-33 year olds.


    AGAIN, IT MAKES TONS OF SENSE.  YOU JUST REFUSE TO SEE IT.


    THIS summer Anderson and Moncada should establish themselves.  And if Yolmer Sanchez turns out to be the hidden gem, 3/4 of an infield.  An infield made whole if a market doesn't develop for Abreau.  Also this summer, Jiminez should be up by July, so he makes 2/3 of an outfield with Garcia.  Sign Cain this winter, that's a whole outfield.  Catcher is already covered.  BAM, real lineup capable of contending for over a decade as kids like Robert and Blakemore and Burger and Adolf slowly work their way in to replace the Cain types.


    This makes a helluva of a lot more sense than waiting for at least 7 kids under 25 to reach some fucked up BABIP metric before its declared safe to contend.


    As for the pitching, who the hell knows?  But baseball history has shown that its easier to develop a pitcher with a real team behind them.  Cain helps make that team more real.  What you fail to understand is a baseball team is NOT 25 independent variables.  A team needs to be constructed where the players compliment each others strengths and minimize each others weaknesses.  Again, a guy like Cain does just that.  Adding to the team speed which is a little light on speed, adding to the team defense on a team of DH's.


    PS, the 1990 White Sox came out of nowhere, so this isn't unheard of.


    PSS, explain the the SF Giants this winter.  Weren't they the worst team in baseball in 2017.  Yet they are pursuing every big name available.  I'm just asking for a 3 year deal on Cain since he clearly helps bridge the gap
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:33 am

    , who the hell knows?  But baseball history has shown that its easier to develop a pitcher with a real team behind them.  Cain helps make that team more real.  What you fail to understand is a baseball team is NOT 25 independent variables.  A team needs to be constructed where the players compliment each others strengths and minimize each others weaknesses.  Again, a guy like Cain does just that.  Adding to the team speed which is a little light on speed, adding to the team defense on a team of DH's.>>
    Either spend $ 60 million and continue the rebuild or spend $ 160 million and get Cain, Moustakas, JD Martinez, Darvish, Alex Cobb and Jaime Garcia and compete. Filling one hole for 2018-2019 accomplishes nothing when the rest of the roster (particularly the pitching staff) is incapable of competing for a while.
    As to CF defense helping the pitching, Sox were 9th in majors in CF defense last year but 29th in pitching.  Sox pitchers were nearly worst in striking guys out, walking too many guys and allowing too many HR's.  Best CF defense in the world doesn't cure that.  Plus Cain's defense isn't the best. He can still run down flyballs but his arm doesn't hold runners taking the extra base, which is a problem with a pitching staff that puts on too many runners.

    PS, the 1990 White Sox came out of nowhere, so this isn't unheard of.
    PSS, explain the the SF Giants this winter.  Weren't they the worst team in baseball in 2017.  Yet they are pursuing every big name available.  I'm just asking for a 3 year deal on Cain since he clearly helps bridge the gap

    Sox also have gaps at 2-3 rotation spots, Closer, setup, LF, DH and 3b.  That's a lot of "bridges" besides Cain.   Even then, that means Avi Garcia and Abreu need to be more like their 2017 than 2016 seasons and Anderson more like his 2016 than 2017. 

    As to the Giants, they still have a core of players that got them to playoffs in 2016 (Bumgarner, Posey, Cueto, Belt, Crawford) but they had key injuries last year.  Giants also have one of the best attendance and one of the highest payrolls in baseball. [size=16][size=18] So no surprise they want to take advantage of the last couple years of that core and go for one more hurrah.  OTOH, the idea of blowing things up and having one of the lower payrolls in baseball  for 2-3 years probably sounded fairly sweet to Jerry Reinsdorf.[/size][/size]
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:31 am

    rmapasad wrote:, who the hell knows?  But baseball history has shown that its easier to develop a pitcher with a real team behind them.  Cain helps make that team more real.  What you fail to understand is a baseball team is NOT 25 independent variables.  A team needs to be constructed where the players compliment each others strengths and minimize each others weaknesses.  Again, a guy like Cain does just that.  Adding to the team speed which is a little light on speed, adding to the team defense on a team of DH's.>>
    Either spend $ 60 million and continue the rebuild or spend $ 160 million and get Cain, Moustakas, JD Martinez, Darvish, Alex Cobb and Jaime Garcia and compete.

    FALSE CHOICE

    Filling one hole for 2018-2019 accomplishes nothing when the rest of the roster (particularly the pitching staff) is incapable of competing for a while.

    FALSE CONCLUSION.  IMPROVED DEFENSE HELPS A YOUNG STAFF DEVELOP WHICH IS PART OF THE PLAN

    As to CF defense helping the pitching, Sox were 9th in majors in CF defense last year but 29th in pitching.  Sox pitchers were nearly worst in striking guys out, walking too many guys and allowing too many HR's.  Best CF defense in the world doesn't cure that.  Plus Cain's defense isn't the best. He can still run down flyballs but his arm doesn't hold runners taking the extra base, which is a problem with a pitching staff that puts on too many runners.

    FALSE MATH.  CAIN WAS LIKE 2ND OR 3RD DEFENSIVELY.  PLUS, LIKE ALL OF BASEBALL, FEILDING ISN'T LINEAR.  NOW IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE CHEAP AND REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT WIN IN 2018 ARE MEANINGLESS, THEN JUST PLAY ADAM ENGEL IN CF.  BUT YOUR AGAINST THAT TOO.  THE ABSOLUTE DUMBEST THING TO DO IS HAND THE JOB TO LEURY GARCIA.  IF SERVES ZERO PURPOSE TO LET THIS GUY GET ON THE JOB TRAINING FOR A YEAR OR TWO JUST TO CUT HIM THE SECOND A REAL PROSPECT EMERGES FROM THE MINORS.  LEURY GARCIA S/B THE LAST RESORT AND FOR SOME STRANGE REASON, YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE.

    PS, the 1990 White Sox came out of nowhere, so this isn't unheard of.
    PSS, explain the the SF Giants this winter.  Weren't they the worst team in baseball in 2017.  Yet they are pursuing every big name available.  I'm just asking for a 3 year deal on Cain since he clearly helps bridge the gap

    Sox also have gaps at 2-3 rotation spots, Closer, setup, LF, DH and 3b.  That's a lot of "bridges" besides Cain.   Even then, that means Avi Garcia and Abreu need to be more like their 2017 than 2016 seasons and Anderson more like his 2016 than 2017. 

    AGAIN, YOU COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTAND THE POINT OF CAIN.  NEVER CLAIMED HE MAKES THEM AN INSTANT WINNER.  MORE LIKE HE FILLS A NEED.  HE HELPS WITH THE REBUILDING PROCESS WITH NOT ONLY HIS DEFENSE, BUT HIS EXPERIENCE.  IF GUYS LIKE MONCADA AND KOPECH DEVELOP RAPIDLY, YOU ARE NOW IN A POSITION TO CONTEND INSTEAD OF BEING CAUGHT NAPPING.  CAIN ONLY COSTS MONEY.  AGAIN, IF MONEY IS THE REAL PROBLEM, PLAY ADAM ENGEL

    As to the Giants, they still have a core of players that got them to playoffs in 2016 (Bumgarner, Posey, Cueto, Belt, Crawford) but they had key injuries last year.  Giants also have one of the best attendance and one of the highest payrolls in baseball. [size=16][size=18] So no surprise they want to take advantage of the last couple years of that core and go for one more hurrah.  OTOH, the idea of blowing things up and having one of the lower payrolls in baseball  for 2-3 years probably sounded fairly sweet to Jerry Reinsdorf.[/size][/size]


    ANOTHER REASON TO SIGN CAIN!!!  3 YEAR FRONT LOADED DEAL WITH A 4TH YEAR OPTION.  MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD AND CREATES A WIN-WIN FOR THE WHITE SOX.  UNLESS YOUR TITO POLO.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:14 am

    THE MAN HAD 75 AT BATS IN ROOKIE BALL.  YOU CAN'T TELL ANYTHING ABOUT OVER THAN HE IS VERY PHYSICALLY GIFTED AND LOOKS LIKE HE KNOWS HOW TO PLAY THE GAME>>.
    Robert is one of the most highly regarded prospects in all of baseball. Speed, power and plate discipline package.  His K/BB was incredible, although the Dominican Rookie League has had a tendency for wild pitchers and high BB rates.  One analyst of prospects predicted Robert could make AA by end of 2018.  That's aggressive but the Sox do push their prospects up the ladder faster than most teams.  If he's a prodigy then 2020 isn't out of the question. But yes, he's 4 levels away from the majors and a lot could happen over the next two seasons. 



    [size=16]CHECK THE CURRENT MARKET TRENDS.  TOUGH YEAR FOR FREE AGENTS.  SOX MIGHT JUST GET HIM FOR 3 YEARS.  PLUS THE KARK HAS NEVER EVER ADVOCATED A 4 YEAR DEAL.  NOR HAVE I ADVOCATED PURSUING CAIN AT ALL COSTS >>[/size]
    Not so sure what's been "tough" about this year for free agents.  Carlos Santana signed for 3 years, $ 60 million and he's averaged 3 WAR per yr. these past three seasons.   Santana was only the 6th highest FA in terms of 2017 WAR - none of the top 5  (which includes Cain) have signed yet.  A[size=16][size=16][size=16][size=16]fter the New Year, the market really picks up steam.  Cain has averaged 4 WAR these past three seasons.  He has to be looking for more than Santana (same age) got. 
    [/size][/size][/size][/size]



    JIMINEZ COULD BE UP THIS JULY.  DITTO KOPECH  COLLINS THIS SEPTEMBER.  WHY CAN'T THEY KICK ASS FROM DAY ONE?>>
    Pitchers take longer to adjust to majors than hitters usually which is why Kopech seems like a better bet for 2020 than 2019. 
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Lincecum anybody?

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:59 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    FALSE CONCLUSION.  IMPROVED DEFENSE HELPS A YOUNG STAFF DEVELOP WHICH IS PART OF THE PLAN
    FALSE MATH.  CAIN WAS LIKE 2ND OR 3RD DEFENSIVELY.  PLUS, LIKE ALL OF BASEBALL, FEILDING ISN'T LINEAR.  NOW IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE CHEAP AND REALLY DO BELIEVE THAT WIN IN 2018 ARE MEANINGLESS, THEN JUST PLAY ADAM ENGEL IN CF.  BUT YOUR AGAINST THAT TOO.  THE ABSOLUTE DUMBEST THING TO DO IS HAND THE JOB TO LEURY GARCIA.  IF SERVES ZERO PURPOSE TO LET THIS GUY GET ON THE JOB TRAINING FOR A YEAR OR TWO JUST TO CUT HIM THE SECOND A REAL PROSPECT EMERGES FROM THE MINORS.  LEURY GARCIA S/B THE LAST RESORT AND FOR SOME STRANGE REASON, YOU THINK HE SHOULD BE AT THE FRONT OF THE LINE.
    AGAIN, YOU COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTAND THE POINT OF CAIN.  NEVER CLAIMED HE MAKES THEM AN INSTANT WINNER.  MORE LIKE HE FILLS A NEED.  HE HELPS WITH THE REBUILDING PROCESS WITH NOT ONLY HIS DEFENSE, BUT HIS EXPERIENCE.  IF GUYS LIKE MONCADA AND KOPECH DEVELOP RAPIDLY, YOU ARE NOW IN A POSITION TO CONTEND INSTEAD OF BEING CAUGHT NAPPING.  CAIN ONLY COSTS MONEY.  AGAIN, IF MONEY IS THE REAL PROBLEM, PLAY ADAM ENGEL
    ANOTHER REASON TO SIGN CAIN!!!  3 YEAR FRONT LOADED DEAL WITH A 4TH YEAR OPTION.  MAKES ALL THE SENSE IN THE WORLD AND CREATES A WIN-WIN FOR THE WHITE SOX.  UNLESS YOUR TITO POLO.

    If the Sox could get Cain at $ 55-60 million guaranteed for next three years plus a  $ 4 million buyout, it could be worth thinking about since Robert may not be quite ready for 2020 and Cain might have enough left in the tank in 2020 to be useful.  Although I'm very suspicious about what happens to speed guys like him in their mid 30's. He'll be 32 in early 2018.
    But right now, Cain's agent has to be thinking 5 year deal like Fowler got last year.  He may settle for 4 years but the market would have to look much bleaker for a 3 year deal and the Sox would hardly be the only team bidding on him for a 3 year deal.  Bottom line is that if Cain is as essential as you seem to think, then the Sox would have to step to the plate with a compelling $$ and yrly term deal to get him.  In other words something that will likely be an albatross deal by 2021-2022.  Until/unless the kind of sweetheart deal you want to make occurs, , then the Sox really are in the audition game for 2018-2019.  Which includes not only Leury Garcia, but Tilson if he can ever get on the field again, Engel if he can ever hit, Ryan Cordell if he can field, and Tito Polo if he's for real. 
    While good fielding in theory yields better pitching, sometimes the connection isn't that strong.  Astros were 29th in fielding, 6th in pitching this year.  Reds were 4th in fielding, 30th in pitching.  As noted before, pitchers have to get used to the fact that the best fielding guys won't play if they can't hit. 


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