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    The dreaded gay cake

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm

    If we're going to open the can of worms of allowing certain kinds of discrimination, then we're ultimately going to be having to defend why all kinds aren't allowed.  Doesn't matter if you like it or not.  Or if I like it.  If the baker is allowed to ban gay cakes, prepare to see each and every possible and plausible type of challenge come to SCOTUS.


    ***********


    Again, I reject your false premise


    this has nothing to do with discrimination against gays


    But it does have a lot to do with persecuation against Christians.


    regardless of the decision, be aware of flood gates opening.  Because if the Court upholds the violation of the bakers 1 and 8th amendment rights, your fascist buddies will be encouraged to target more and more Christians as well as other that don't believe correctly
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:04 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    Wrong again


    the fact that you use the word bigotry just shows how biased you really are, and to support your ridiculous straw man arguments

    Strikes me lately that the word bigotry has been often and conveniently replaced by Deeply Held Religious Beliefs in an effort to hide one's bigotry behind their Bible or Koran, or whatever book they want to claim justifies their desire to discriminate.


    Your reply strikes me as a lame excuse
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:11 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:No.  I want for all private enterprises to have the right to serve whomever the hell they want.  That way there's no religious, political, or any other kind of test.  Drop all of these laws and just let private business serve who they want to serve.


    I don't believe that you believe this because you left out the catch.  after reading your posts for 2 two decades, I know damn well that you'd be all for the harrassment of these businesses under the guise of freedom of assembly.


    And that is the problem with your false premise.


    Refusing to bake a gay wedding cake is completely different than throwing some "N" out of your diner simply because the person is an "N"


    One has a legitimate right and deserves to be protected.  The other is just a jerk and has no justification engaging in such behavior and deserves to be protested.  Your inability to see that is on you, not me
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:16 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    That analogy is the heart of this issue.  Not your phony idea that the KKK is a legitimate religion which it ain't

    What in the hell are you talking about?  The KKK as a legitimate religion?  No.  My point is that if my religion finds KKK folks to be anti-religious, or to be against my basic religious beliefs, why couldn't I use my deeply held religious beliefs to refuse to serve them?  You can deny a gay person for defying your beliefs.  KKK isn't a religion any more than homosexuality isn't a religion.  Deeply held religious belief (in this situation) is another way of saying I want to discriminate against these people and deny them basic rights or services.  Fine if you want to deny me service, as long as I have the same right to deny who I wish.  Citing religion as a reason is subjective and abstract, and why can't I have my own subjective and abstract religious beliefs?

    Because you can't


    So I use your own words against word and it flies right over your head


    Hillarious.


    almost as hillarious has this invented scenarios that have nothing to do with the case b4 the court.
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:19 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    Soxillinirob wrote:

    I don't recall anything in the Bible about birth control or abortion, 

    Commandment #6.

    Thou shall not wear a rubber or use the birth control pill?  Actually, there is a passage or two in the Bible that explains how to undue an unwanted pregnancy.  I had it read to me once or twice.


    Only Rob would thing refusing to pay for somebody else's birth control as some kind of civil rights violation.


    PS, you just contradicted yourself


    LMAO
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:40 pm

    https://townhall.com/columnists/ryanbomberger/2017/12/07/sorry-aclu-gay-is-not-the-new-black-n2419535


    *****************


    to summarize, gay is not the new black.  whatever discrimination they claim they are facing is random and infrequent.  Unlike the discrimination blacks faced which was systematic and institutional


    The real victims here are the Christians who are losing their livelihoods for believing incorrectly.


    the big lie is RobZ false assertion that the court can open the door to bigotry and discrimination.  Wrong, the big fear in this case is the the Court can open the door to thought control.  One doesn't need the Bible to understand that the homosexual lifestyle is unnatural, unhealthy and self destructive.  It serves no useful purpose and it should not be pandered to.


    Religion, regardless of how flawed or how it gets distorted, does serve a useful purpose.  It's obvious that RobZ is letting is biased towards organized religion cloud his judgement on this issue
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    Soxillinirob
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:12 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:***********


    Again, I reject your false premise


    this has nothing to do with discrimination against gays


    But it does have a lot to do with persecuation against Christians.

    Call it what you want to call it.  It doesn't have to be gays and Christians.  It can be KKK members and Soxism (that's what I'd call my religion, I think).  If I want to choose to deny service to KKK members, and I'm forced to serve them, isn't that a persecution against my Soxism religion?  Or nevermind the KKK.  Insert black people and my new religion called White'ism.  Why should a White'ist be forced to serve people that don't fit his religious beliefs?  This isn't a gay issue to me.  Not at all, in fact.  It's a civil rights issue.  Either we serve everyone, or we're allowed to choose to serve whomever we fucking want.  I just don't really understand this gray area of "I can choose to not serve gays because religion" or "I don't have to serve Jews cuz religion."
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    Soxillinirob
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:14 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Soxillinirob wrote:No.  I want for all private enterprises to have the right to serve whomever the hell they want.  That way there's no religious, political, or any other kind of test.  Drop all of these laws and just let private business serve who they want to serve.

    I don't believe that you believe this because you left out the catch.  after reading your posts for 2 two decades, I know damn well that you'd be all for the harrassment of these businesses under the guise of freedom of assembly.

    And that is the problem with your false premise.

    Refusing to bake a gay wedding cake is completely different than throwing some "N" out of your diner simply because the person is an "N"

    One has a legitimate right and deserves to be protected.  The other is just a jerk and has no justification engaging in such behavior and deserves to be protested.  Your inability to see that is on you, not me


    By all means, yes, we already have the freedom to assemble.  Thusly, if I'm refusing to serve Trump voters, you have every right to picket or write bad Yelp reviews or tell your friends on Facebook how horrible my business is.  
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:39 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Soxillinirob wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    Soxillinirob wrote:

    I don't recall anything in the Bible about birth control or abortion, 

    Commandment #6.

    Thou shall not wear a rubber or use the birth control pill?  Actually, there is a passage or two in the Bible that explains how to undue an unwanted pregnancy.  I had it read to me once or twice.


    Only Rob would thing refusing to pay for somebody else's birth control as some kind of civil rights violation.


    PS, you just contradicted yourself


    LMAO

    Dude, try following the fucking thread or just check out and take a nap.  I'm not defending anyone's paying for anyone else's birth control.  I brought birth control into the discussion because there's a certain religion that stands against it, even though it's not stated in the Bible as necessarily and clearly being against that religion.  And if that religion can just deem something to be against their religion, then why can't my White'ism just declare blacks as evil?  Or why can't my Peace'ism religion declare the KKK to be unworthy of buying a cake in my shop?  Any religion can cite deeply held beliefs as a standard by which to deny service to anyone.  The courts are not going to force religions to prove up their beliefs and live by them as such.  I only brought up birth control because it's a religious tenet that sort of materialized not due to something in the Bible or Koran, or so forth.  

    As soon as the courts say it's ok to deny service to gays because Jesus, then the next business can deny service to blacks because Jesus, or KKK because Jesus, or Trump voters or Hillary voters because Jesus.  My deeply held religious beliefs are my business and my freedom and you haven't any damn right telling me what's right and/or wrong in this realm.  If you can refuse gays service, then I can refuse Trump voters....because Jesus!
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:46 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:https://townhall.com/columnists/ryanbomberger/2017/12/07/sorry-aclu-gay-is-not-the-new-black-n2419535

    *****************

    to summarize, gay is not the new black.  whatever discrimination they claim they are facing is random and infrequent.  Unlike the discrimination blacks faced which was systematic and institutional

    Wow, thanks for the Townhall article.  Let me get right on that.  LOL.

    The original discrimination against blacks was based upon declaring them to be less than, or different than (in a negative way) us.  We were able to discriminate against them because it was accepted they were less than and undeserving.  Once the courts declared them equal, the discrimination was over with.  However, I don't know that a solid case has been made to the degree that we can refuse them on religious grounds.  But if we can refuse gays on religious grounds, I think we can refuse quite a few other people on religious grounds.  As you know, I'm not an overtly religious person.  I don't attend church and there's no love lost in my home for organized religion.  That said, one shouldn't assume I'm non-spiritual or non-religious.  I'm actually, on a personal level, both religious and spiritual, and in my personal-religious world, there's almost nothing lower than a KKK member.  I'd say that my view of KKK members is no better than your view of gay people.  And thusly, why couldn't I use religious grounds to refuse to serve a skinhead/KKK type?  Am I not privy to the same rights you are?  Why can't I express my religion by refusing them service.
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:57 pm

    Kark, what I'm hearing from you repeatedly in this thread is that you don't give a fuck what my hypothetical religion thinks about blacks, Trump voters, KKK members, etc...cuz all that matters is that your religion thinks gays suck (no pun intended).  So basically, your deeply held religious beliefs get an audience in the courts, but mine wouldn't because mine aren't yours.  That's really it.  Your deeply held beliefs have value, but libs' don't, because Jesus, or because Buddha or because Trump, or whomever your God is these days.
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:59 pm

    By all means, yes, we already have the freedom to assemble.  Thusly, if I'm refusing to serve Trump voters, you have every right to picket or write bad Yelp reviews or tell your friends on Facebook how horrible my business is.


    *********************


    And how the hell would you know I'm a Trump supporter?!?!?!?


    Again, your argument is based on hyberole and gross exaggerations.


    You show zero sympathy for the baker because he believes in something you reject.  Then you make it clear that if the situation was reversed, you flip flop.


    then you wonder why I think your two faced.


    well its due to the lack of logic and consistancy of your argument.  the only thing consistant about your argument is the end result of screw those who dare disagree with you.


    do you even realize the sentence above means that those who can organize the largest and noisest mob gets there way?!?!?!  As well as encouraging the targeting of those who simply disagree?!?!  Is that what you want?  300milion people engaged in group thinker with all dissenters targeted for destruction?


    so stop lying and realizing designing a wedding cake is a helluva lot more different that grilling a burger.  this isn't the frathouse where Rob get to show off how smart he is by being a deliberate contrarian


    PS, did you know the baker stopped making all wedding cakes after this fascist couple targeted him
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:10 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:Kark, what I'm hearing from you repeatedly in this thread is that you don't give a fuck what my hypothetical religion thinks about blacks, Trump voters, KKK members, etc...cuz all that matters is that your religion thinks gays suck (no pun intended).  So basically, your deeply held religious beliefs get an audience in the courts, but mine wouldn't because mine aren't yours.  That's really it.  Your deeply held beliefs have value, but libs' don't, because Jesus, or because Buddha or because Trump, or whomever your God is these days.



    then you completely misread, or more likely, deliberately distorted my points.


    People have a right to believe in a religion.  People have a right to earn a living.  rights you blatantly ignore than mock with completely fucked up hypotheticals.


    the issue, which you blatantly ignore is what happens when one right interferes with another.


    well those faggot fascists could have easily gone somewhere else.  why weren't they forced into sensitivity training?  Like the cake owner was.  


    so wake up.  It is the left, not the right that is into silencing and intimidating and harassing those who don't share the same beliefs, religious, political or otherwise.  Just look at the typical college campus if you wish to see this intolerance in person.


    PS, I don't see any gays losing their homes in this issue.  so I guess you cool with the 8th amendment getting flushed down the toilet as well.


    PSS, its 1 millions years of human evolution that defined marriage as a sacred union between a man and woman for the purpose of having children.  I would think a father of 3 would understand the special bonds that are formed when procreating.
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:14 pm

    and another, the court could have avoided all of this in the Obergefell decision by declaring estate taxes unconstitutional.  I'm sure the court could have twisted the 8th amendment the way they twist the 14th and the commerce clause to claim the Fed Gov can do whatever the hell it wants.


    I don't think I've forgotten your ignorant heartless comments regarding the millions of middle class farmers that got screwed by the death tax and lost the family farm.


    Fags over Farmers.  Gays over God.  Hypotheticals over Reality.  You sure have one fucked up way of looking at the world
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:35 pm

    Soxillinirob wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:https://townhall.com/columnists/ryanbomberger/2017/12/07/sorry-aclu-gay-is-not-the-new-black-n2419535

    *****************

    to summarize, gay is not the new black.  whatever discrimination they claim they are facing is random and infrequent.  Unlike the discrimination blacks faced which was systematic and institutional

    Wow, thanks for the Townhall article.  Let me get right on that.  LOL.

    The original discrimination against blacks was based upon declaring them to be less than, or different than (in a negative way) us.  We were able to discriminate against them because it was accepted they were less than and undeserving.  Once the courts declared them equal, the discrimination was over with. 

    LMAO!!!!  TELL THAT TO BLACK LIVES MATTER

    However, I don't know that a solid case has been made to the degree that we can refuse them on religious grounds.  But if we can refuse gays on religious grounds, I think we can refuse quite a few other people on religious grounds.  As you know, I'm not an overtly religious person.  I don't attend church and there's no love lost in my home for organized religion.  That said, one shouldn't assume I'm non-spiritual or non-religious.  I'm actually, on a personal level, both religious and spiritual, and in my personal-religious world, there's almost nothing lower than a KKK member.  I'd say that my view of KKK members is no better than your view of gay people.  And thusly, why couldn't I use religious grounds to refuse to serve a skinhead/KKK type?  Am I not privy to the same rights you are?  Why can't I express my religion by refusing them service


    A MARRIAGE IS A SACRED UNION BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN FOR THE PURPOSE OF HAVING CHILDREN!!!!!


    SO THERE IS NO DISCRIMANTION!!!!!


    IF SOME PEOPLE REFUSE TO LIVE A NORMAL LIFE, THEY HAVE NO EXPECTATION, NONE WHATSOEVER, THAT SOCIETY SHOULD TO REDEFINE ALL OF SOCIETY TO RELIEVE PEOPLE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR DECISIONS.


    AGAIN, YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT IS BASED UPON A FALSE PREMIS.  NOT ONLY THAT, IT IGNORE THE VERY REAL PERSECUTION OF THOSE WHO UNDERSTAND HOW COMPLETELY STUPID IT IS TO REDEFINE MARRIAGE JUST TO PANDER TO AN UNNATURAL, UNHEALTHY, SELF DESTRUCTIVE LIFESTYLE.


    AND ANOTHER THING.  FORGET MARRIAGE.  WHERE THE HELL HAS ANYBODY CLAIMED THEY CAN DISCRIMINATE AGAINST GAYS BASED UPON THEIR RELIGION.  NOWHERE.  WHILE THERE MIGHT BE A RANDOM EXAMPLE HERE AND THERE, THERE IS NO WIDESPREAD MOVEMENT TO BAN GAYS FROM THE WORKPLACE OR SCHOOLS OR HOUSING OR VOTING OR BUSINESS OWNERSHIP...  JUST THIS ONE ISSUE OF MARRIAGE THAT HAS HAD A VERY DISTINCT DEFINTION FOR ALMOST ALL OF HUMAN HISTORY.  SO SEE HOW YOUR HOW ARGUMENT IS A LIE.  IF YOUR FALSE CLAIM OF JESUS IS MY EXCUSE WERE TRUE, THEN GAYS WOULD BE PERSECUTED ALL OVER THE PLACE.  WELL THEY'RE NOT.  THE ONLY ONES I SEE PERSECUTED SYSTEMATICALLY AND INSTITUTIONALLY ARE CHRISTIANS AND THOSE WHO DARE TO BE POLITICALLY INCORRECT.


    SO WAKE UP AND REALIZE IT IS YOU THAT SUPPORTS KKK-STYLE FASCISM.  NOT ME.  SO SPARE ME YOUR OUTRIGHT DISTORTIONS OF THINGS I NEVER SAID.
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:43 pm

    Hey Rob


    two bald guys walk into your diner, you have no right to throw them out.


    If they start talking about how "N" are ruining the country, then you have every right to tell them that kinda of talk ain't welcome in your diner.


    If you have a backroom that you rent for parties and a couple of bald guys say they want to rent it for a B-Day party, you just might have to.


    If the date is 4/20 and its to celebrate Hitler's B-Day, you have the right to refuse.  So how it works.


    Again, you lie when you claim I want to ban gays from society and replace them with skinheads
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:08 pm

    and RobZ, just to further point out how you are completely unrealistic you are being, try and open a Chick Fil A in some college student Union.


    Contrary to your distortions of what I say or think or believe, I have never ever claimed gays should be denied the ability to run a business.  Unlike you, I don't then contradict myself with double talk about how people would have a right to protest that business.  In fact WTF right would I have to protest the opening of the business if the only issue is the sexual orientation of the owner.  Which BTW, should never be an issue in many cases.


    so you and your phony religion and your inane hypothetical are simply wrong.  Mostly due to the lack of basis in reality
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:54 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:You show zero sympathy for the baker because he believes in something you reject.  Then you make it clear that if the situation was reversed, you flip flop.

    I have full sympathy for him.  I would like for him to be able to reject any customer for any reason he wants, and for you and me and the next guy to have the same right.  I think it's total bullshit for him to be told who he can serve, or for him to have to sit and decide what constitutes an exercise of his freedom of expression, and what doesn't.  It's confusing and it's nuts.  I don't condone turning gay people away, but I condone him having a full freedom to associate with whomever he chooses.  

    That said, if we must have laws that dictate we can't discriminate against this guy or that lady, then gay people deserve service the same as blacks, whites, flat chested chicks, and KKK members.  

    Haven't you said homosexuality is a mental illness?  If so, are you taking the stance that there's a religion that has a deeply held religious problem with handicapped folks?
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:01 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    I don't think I've forgotten your ignorant heartless comments regarding the millions of middle class farmers that got screwed by the death tax and lost the family farm.

    If they lost a family farm due to estate taxes, then they gained a shit-ton of money in the process.  If a family knows their farm has value enough that estate taxes could become an issue in the event of their death, shouldn't they plan ahead for that the same way I plan ahead for my kids to pay for college?  Or maybe they can subdivide the family farm into two parcels and sell off enough of it to pay the estate tax and then keep the rest.  I've worked with clients in my commercial banking days who inherited 20 mill worth of cash and properties, and they sold some of the property, and subdivided a large parcel of land, and kept the other half.  The gov't allowed something like five years to do it.  A family farm worth 5.5 mill or 11 mill is a big assed farm.
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:05 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Contrary to your distortions of what I say or think or believe, I have never ever claimed gays should be denied the ability to run a business.  Unlike you, I don't then contradict myself with double talk about how people would have a right to protest that business.  In fact WTF right would I have to protest the opening of the business if the only issue is the sexual orientation of the owner.  Which BTW, should never be an issue in many cases.

    Never tried to imply that you claimed gays shouldn't be able to run a business.  You've never made that claim, despite your extremism.  


    Otherwise, we all have a right to protest the actions of a business.  First Amendment.  I thought you liked the First Amendment.  
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    Re: The dreaded gay cake

    Post by Soxillinirob on Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:10 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Again, you lie when you claim I want to ban gays from society and replace them with skinheads

    What in the bloody fuck are you talking about?  Get some reading comprehension and then go back and reread the thread.  Nobody said this.  Christ almighty...for a self-proclaimed genius, you can't follow a thread to save your life.

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