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    SO LONG RYMIER

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    Deplorable Mark
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    SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:40 am

    THE MAN WHO HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF WAY TOO MANY POSTS THIS SPRING & SUMMER, RYMIER LIRIANO, HAS BEEN OUTRIGHTED BY THE WHITE SOX AND IS NOW A FREE AGENT.


    BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR FUTURE ENDEAVORS RYMIER!!!!


    THE KARK IS STILL CONFIDENT THAT YOU CAN BE THE ALEJANDRO DE AZA OF THE NEXT DECADE
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    rmapasad
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:23 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:THE MAN WHO HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF WAY TOO MANY POSTS THIS SPRING & SUMMER, RYMIER LIRIANO, HAS BEEN OUTRIGHTED BY THE WHITE SOX AND IS NOW A FREE AGENT.

    BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR FUTURE ENDEAVORS RYMIER!!!!

    THE KARK IS STILL CONFIDENT THAT YOU CAN BE THE ALEJANDRO DE AZA OF THE NEXT DECADE

    Liriano has tools but they never developed after his peak season at age 20 when
    he hit .319, stole 65 bases, .180 ISO .  But it was all downhill from there except for a  couple brief hot spells.  This year in AAA, he stole a measly 7 bags, had a tepid 160 ISO, and struck out 27% of time (BA .256).  His major league K rate is 30%+ with no power and that's why he's a .220 big league hitter. 
     
    De Aza was able to tame his strikeouts, hit, and run bases well enough to be marginally useful for a while.   But Liriano doesn't seem to have any strengths anymore to make up for his vulnerability to strikeouts and low BA that goes with that.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:04 pm

    THE MAN WHO HAS BEEN THE SUBJECT OF WAY TOO MANY POSTS THIS SPRING & SUMMER, RYMIER LIRIANO, HAS BEEN OUTRIGHTED BY THE WHITE SOX AND IS NOW A FREE AGENT.>>
    IMO, the reason Liriano got so much attention is that the Sox saw him as a possible jewel in the rough that might develop. He had the "tools" that Sox scouts love so much.  He was the first guy the Sox selected in the offseason and probably as a competitor for the RF spot which was not exactly in Avi Garcia's pocket at that time. Considering Avi had played only 46 games in RF in 2016.
    Liriano's last stint in AAA (843 OPS), while not that impressive for his age and in that hitting environment, was respectable enough coupled with his defense to make him a legit contender for RF.  Especially in a year where the Sox weren't
    going to spend big $$ on a free agent to improve that spot.
    Clearly Avi answered the bell in ST and Liriano didn't.  But this has been the way it's been for Liriano his whole career.  
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:41 pm

    IMO, the reason Liriano got so much attention


    *****************************


    SPARE ME THE LIRIANO BASHING!!!!!!


    The reason he got so much attention is that you & I get off arguing with each other and the rest of the board has been in hiding since November 9th!!!!
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:21 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:IMO, the reason Liriano got so much attention


    *****************************


    SPARE ME THE LIRIANO BASHING!!!!!!


    The reason he got so much attention is that you & I get off arguing with each other and the rest of the board has been in hiding since November 9th!!!!


    The 2017 White Sox roster wasn't much to talk about other than the ones fighting to keep their careers alive, so guys like Garcia, Liriano, Sanchez probably got as much attention here as they've gotten from their mothers. 
    I thought we both agreed that it'd been good if Liriano had been able to cut it.  He plays decent defense, has some power, some speed, and respectable BB rate.  IIRC, the only disagreement was that you felt his injuries had held his career back, where I thought his high K rate has been the main culprit.

    For the record, I'm not completely writing him off.  But his odds of getting 1000 PA's after age 27 are about 8%.  If you want an explanation of that, it can be provided.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:50 am

    What do Murph, Howie and Richard Lindberg think???
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by alohafri on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:04 am

    Hawk Harrelson wrote:What do Murph, Howie and Richard Lindberg think???

    Has Linberg picked out a new city for the Sox to move to yet?
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:21 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:IMO, the reason Liriano got so much attention


    *****************************


    SPARE ME THE LIRIANO BASHING!!!!!!


    The reason he got so much attention is that you & I get off arguing with each other and the rest of the board has been in hiding since November 9th!!!!


    The 2017 White Sox roster wasn't much to talk about other than the ones fighting to keep their careers alive, so guys like Garcia, Liriano, Sanchez probably got as much attention here as they've gotten from their mothers. 
    I thought we both agreed that it'd been good if Liriano had been able to cut it.  He plays decent defense, has some power, some speed, and respectable BB rate.  IIRC, the only disagreement was that you felt his injuries had held his career back, where I thought his high K rate has been the main culprit.

    For the record, I'm not completely writing him off.  But his odds of getting 1000 PA's after age 27 are about 8%.  If you want an explanation of that, it can be provided.


    YOUR JUST DYING TO KEEP THIS GOING AREN'T YOU.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:29 am

    alohafri wrote:
    Hawk Harrelson wrote:What do Murph, Howie and Richard Lindberg think???

    Has Linberg picked out a new city for the Sox to move to yet?



    Without checking, I believe San Antonio is the largest city without an MLB franchise


    Indianapolis is also logical choice considering how much of the south side has fled to Indiana


    Nashville TN is also up and coming.  My place of employment was rumored to move their in 2015.  Might still happen.  How great what that be if the baseball team that defines my existence came with


    ***************************************


    BTW, too lazy to look.  Are cities and states still building stadiums for these greedy SOB's ?!?!?!?!?!?


    And even if they are, would any match what I assume to be a sweatheart of a lease agreement that Reinsdorf bought, I mean negotiated with Springfield?
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:40 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    YOUR JUST DYING TO KEEP THIS GOING AREN'T YOU.

    Last I looked, you were the one who started this thread.

    Liriano signing a year ago made sense. No risk - possible upside. It just didn't go well. Did notice though he had a 913 OPS v. LHers in Charlotte.  He may have a future as a platoon 4th OFer . 

    Lots of guys have had careers after age 27 when they either bombed their original big league trials or had no experience at all in majors prior to age 27.  You cited De Aza. Others that come to mind are Edgar Martinez, Casey Blake, Dave Roberts, Brian Daubach.  So there's always hope for Liriano if he can get another shot. Problem is that only 1 in 12 get that chance after they've flunked their pre-age 27 trials.   Ones who do get that shot usually have to put up great numbers in AAA at ages 26-28. That's what it will take for guys like Liriano, Asche, Engel, MAy, etc. to get one run.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:56 pm

    YOUR JUST DYING TO KEEP THIS GOING AREN'T YOU.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by alohafri on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:13 pm

    So much obsession on two "never will be's, never were's".


    Who will you talk about next? Jordan Danks?
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:33 pm

    alohafri wrote:So much obsession on two "never will be's, never were's".
    Who will you talk about next? Jordan Danks?

    Funny you mention Jordan Danks.  Sox had no business farting around with him after his first failed callup at age 26.  Yet they beat their heads against the wall with him two more seasons afterward and he never hit more than .230 BA in any of them. 
    At least Liriano was considered a legit prospect at one point.  Plus in 2017, the Sox were fielding a whole lineup of "might be but probably not" types.  Some actually worked out like  Avi Garcia, Sanchez, Narvaez, Delmonico, Leury Garcia.  To me that beats the "has-beens" like Dunn, LaRoche, Shields, Morneau, etc. that the Sox had been loading up on before.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:46 pm

    DIDN'T JORDAN GO DEEP IN THE GAME THAT JIM NOMADS PRESENTED THE LINEUP CARD???


    I CLEARLY RECALL MR ROBZ CALLING THAT SHOT TO YOU, WHILE I WAS SIMULATANOUSLY CALLING THAT SHOT TO YOUR LOVELY BRIDE.


    **************


    HAD HE BEEN NAMED JORDAN SMITH, I DOUBT HE LASTS AS LONG.


    THEN AGAIN, HE DID HAVE SPEED AND DEFENSE AND AT 6'4", LOOKED LIKE A BALL PLAYER.  PLUS HIS 682 OPS IN 2013 FITS RIGHT IN WITH THE REST OF THE WHITE SOX
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:02 pm

    To me that beats the "has-beens" like Dunn, LaRoche, Shields, Morneau, etc. that the Sox had been loading up on before.



    **********************************


    Adam Dunn was not a has been at the time of signing.  Prior year 892OPS with a 260 BA at the age of 30.


    What happened to Dunn his first year with the White Sox is probably unprecedented.


    The KARK suspects that he rushed back after his appendectomy.  He only took one week off.  Upon coming back, he average dropped like a rock.   and idiot Guillen played him day after day after day.  I thinks its obvious he never healed properly.


    In retrospect, Dunn should have taken a month off and Guillen should have never attempted to turn him into Cal Ripken
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:48 pm

    Adam Dunn was not a has been at the time of signing.  Prior year 892OPS with a 260 BA at the age of 30.   What happened to Dunn his first year with the White Sox is probably unprecedented.
    The KARK suspects that he rushed back after his appendectomy.  He only took one week off.  Upon coming back, he average dropped like a rock.   and idiot Guillen played him day after day after day.  I thinks its obvious he never healed properly.
    In retrospect, Dunn should have taken a month off and Guillen should have never attempted to turn him into Cal Ripken  ....


    Re-litigating Adam Dunn ?   Agree, his OPS of 2010 sure didn't make him look like a has-been.  But there were warning signs.
    His already high K rate soared and his BB rate dropped his last year with Nationals.  He luckily had a .329 BABIP that yr which made his BA a respectable .260.
    But when his BABIP went back to its more normal .270-ish range with the Sox, the higher K's pushed his BA to very low 200's and declining BB's kept his OBP in low 300's.  He still hit HR's but only made .800 OPS (just barely) in one of four seasons with Sox.  After 9 prior years with 850+ or better including five 900+ seasons.  

    Do agree that 2011 was bad beyond any reasonable expectations, and could be rushing back too soon was the reason. He did bounce back in 2012 but  even then he was a shell of his former self. Bottom line: had Sox examined the history of tall sluggers in their early 30's, paid heed to his  higher than normal BABIP's and looked at his K/BB rate in 2010, those all pointed to why it was a bad idea to have signed him to a 4 year deal..
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:25 pm

    BABIP IS BULLSHIT
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:47 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:BABIP IS BULLSHIT
    Of course, that's why Baseball Reference, Fangraphs, ESPN, etc. have it listed.  It's such bullshit.

    It's only the main component of Bat Average, that's all.  Dumb GM's totally ignore it and that's why
    they sign guys to big stupid contracts based on unusually high and unrepeatable BABIP or release
    guys who had low BA's due to bad luck.  In short ignoring BABIP indicators is a pretty surefire way
    for a GM to get fired.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:50 pm

    i'm impressed


    all the alchemists swear they know how to turn lead into gold and you believe the bullshit


    give me an example where a GM used BABIP to make a decision that ran contrary to what the traditional stats would have dictated.


    And lets never forget that BABIP had Avisail Garcia falling back to earth.  Instead, he lost power in the 2nd half and had more lucky groundball hits than ever!!!!!


    PS, even fangraphs claims BABIP is NOT solely a luck indicator.  Maybe you need a Saber 101 refresher.  Then maybe you won't sound like a crackpot when to bitcher the work pf others
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:06 pm

    PS your full of shit regarding Adam Dunns BABIP  2009 = 267/324 2010 = 260/329


    That AVG and BABIP look very consistant to me.


    Now thats now to say Dunn was a smart move.  If one looked at the real stats, one would see that 2010 was a last hurrah year for an OK team that won more than it should.  Signing Dunn was no more foolish than thinking they could squeeze one more year out of AJ and Paulie.  A real stat analysis would have shown 88 wins to be a ceiling, not a floor.


    Not only that, but the White Sox tried this stunt in 1997.  An OK, but not chanpionship caliber team just missed in 1996.  so the White Sox bought the biggest available bat while ignoring pitching and defense and the stunt failed miserably.  White Sox forgot their own history and it repeated


    But what really made it incredibly dumb was that the White Sox could have left their free agents walk and they would have gotten 5 draft picks giving them 7 in the first two rounds.  That would have jump started a struggling farm system.  This was a once in a lifetime shot because baseball would soon change how free agents where compensated for.  something the front office should have been aware of.


    What the White Sox did in 2017 is what should have been done in the summer of 2011.  They had plenty of pitching that they could have cashed out
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by alohafri on Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:31 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:DIDN'T JORDAN GO DEEP IN THE GAME THAT JIM NOMADS PRESENTED THE LINEUP CARD???


    I CLEARLY RECALL MR ROBZ CALLING THAT SHOT TO YOU, WHILE I WAS SIMULATANOUSLY CALLING THAT SHOT TO YOUR LOVELY BRIDE.


    **************


    HAD HE BEEN NAMED JORDAN SMITH, I DOUBT HE LASTS AS LONG.


    THEN AGAIN, HE DID HAVE SPEED AND DEFENSE AND AT 6'4", LOOKED LIKE A BALL PLAYER.  PLUS HIS 682 OPS IN 2013 FITS RIGHT IN WITH THE REST OF THE WHITE SOX

    Some guys are just called to be minor league lifers like Crash Davis. You're right. If Jordan Danks is Jordan Smith, he never plays at the Cell.
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:06 am

    PS your full of shit regarding Adam Dunns BABIP  2009 = 267/324 2010 = 260/329  That AVG and BABIP look very consistant to me. 

    Prior to Nationals, Dunn was a career .246 BA/.289 BABIP.  His elevated BABIP's with the Nationals
    came from a higher than normal rate of IF hits on grounders in 2009 and a higher than normal rate of flyballs falling in for hits in 2010. No "skills growth" explains why these things changed.  So it must have been randomness and boy did he revert to the mean and then some w/Sox.

    If you take his BABIP in the four year span of 2009-2012 (two years with Nats, two years with Sox) it was .285, almost identical to what it had been in his career prior to 2009.  If the Sox had dug further they would have seen he was a "normal" .245 hitter , not the .265 guy he was with Nats, and with declining hit skills in his early-mid 30's it might have been logical to assume he would hit even worse.  

    If one looked at the real stats, one would see that 2010 was a last hurrah year for an OK team that won more than it should.  Signing Dunn was no more foolish than thinking they could squeeze one more year out of AJ and Paulie.  A real stat analysis would have shown 88 wins to be a ceiling, not a floor.
    Actually Paulie and AJ's last hurrah was 2012.  I don't think it was irrational to keep playing win-now after 2010. Sox had nucleus of Danks, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd plus AJ, Konerko, Ramirez, Quentin, Rios.  
    What was irrational is the Sox's typical problem - trying to play win-now with glaring holes that aren't fixed. Pierre was a joke in LF - 100 pt worse OPS than an avg. LFer and he was kept in 2011.  Beckham was 65 pts below an average 2bman and even worse in 2011.   3b was also bad and in 2011-2012 it was a disaster.  While DH wasn't very good in 2010 it wasn't as bad as the other holes.  So getting Dunn didn't solve the bigger problems and of course he was a big problem in 2011.    
     
    The lesson Reinsdorf never seems to want to learn is that to compete you can't do it half-ass on the cheap.  He probably felt so burned after the Dunn signing in 2011, he completely swore off the FA market in 2012.  So the last hurrahs of AJ, Konerko, Rios, Dunn and Peavy were wasted as were the coming-out parties of Sale and Quintana.  In a year when the Sox were either leading AL Central or within a hair's breath until the final 4-5 games.  Meantime, 2b, 3b, Closer, LF, 5th SP and CF were either inferior or outright disasters from relying on cheap "talent" on the roster (Beckham, Morel, Reed, Viciedo, DeAza, Humber). And the in-season "fixes" were inexpensive has-beens like Youklis, Hudson, Fukudome,etc.  This was a Reinsdorf operation in its classic form.  
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:26 am

    If you take his BABIP in the four year span of 2009-2012 (two years with Nats, two years with Sox) it was .285, almost identical to what it had been in his career prior to 2009.  If the Sox had dug further they would have seen he was a "normal" .245 hitter , not the .265 guy he was with Nats, and with declining hit skills in his early-mid 30's it might have been logical to assume he would hit even worse.  


    *********************


    LMAO!!!!


    NOW BABIP CAN PREDICT APPENDICITIS


    HEY, DAVE WINFIELD WAS THE SAME HEIGHT AS DUNN.  WINFIELD PLAYED UNTIL 43!!!!!  MAYBE HOW YOU TAKE CARE OF YOUR BODY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE SIZE
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:31 am

    I don't think it was irrational to keep playing win-now after 2010. Sox had nucleus of Danks, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd plus AJ, Konerko, Ramirez, Quentin, Rios.  


    ******************************************************************


    AND HOW DID THAT NUCLEUS PERFORM AS A GROUP FROM 2011 ON?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


    A COLLECTIVE PILE OF CRAP, THATS HOW


    AMAZING HOW YOUR BULLSHIT STATS CAN PREDICT ADAM DUNN'S APPENDICITIS BUT THEY COULDN'T SEE THE COLLAPSE OF THE WIN NOW NUCLEUS THAT NEVER WON NOTHING


    BUT GO AHEAD AND KEEP CHERRY PICKING STATS.  THE REST OF THE BOARD WILL BE REMEMBERING WHAT MARK TWAIN SAID
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    Re: SO LONG RYMIER

    Post by alohafri on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:34 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Actually Paulie and AJ's last hurrah was 2012.  I don't think it was irrational to keep playing win-now after 2010. Sox had nucleus of Danks, Peavy, Buehrle, Floyd plus AJ, Konerko, Ramirez, Quentin, Rios.  

    With the exception of Alexei, the rest of them were on the downsides of their careers. Win Now after 2010 was irrational.

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