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    rmapasad
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    2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:52 am

    Here are all the rankings of Sox players v. others in majors at their positions this year. 

    C - Narvaez (22nd)  1.5 WAR  - bad at throwing out runners though

    1b- Abreu (4th)  4.2 WAR - his best season since 2014

    2b - Sanchez (17th)  2.1 WAR - his best season -good defense, average offense
           Moncada (35th) . 8 WAR - his rank goes to 25th w/500 PA's - good power, speed, BB's,  
                                                  too many strikeouts depress his BA, defense slightly below average
    3b - Sanchez (23rd)  2.1 WAR
           Davidson (61st)  -.8 WAR - RHed Adam Dunn without the BB's - whiffs, HR's, bad defense 

    SS  - Anderson (39th)  .3 WAR - tough year, worst BB /highest K for all SS's, good power though

    LF -  Leury Garcia (35th) 1.1 WAR - ranks 24th w/ 500 PA's - good defense, so-so offense for OF
            Nick Delmonico (40th) 1.0 WAR - would rank 13th w/ 500 PA's - pleasant surprise but
            his majors OPS was 855 v. 769 AAA and he had 3 times # of AB's in AAA. Could he sustain his
            Aug/Sept White Sox performance over a whole season ?
            Willy Garcia (64th) - 0 WAR 

    CF -  Leury Garcia (39th)  1.1 WAR
            Adam Engel  (62nd)   -.7 WAR

    RF  - Avi Garcia (6th)  4.2 WAR  

    DH - Nick Delmonico (5th) - 1.0 WAR
            Matt Davidson (17th) -  -.8 WAR  -  only 14 teams have DH's 

         
    For 2018 

    1B- Abreu - last year of Sox's control
    2b -Moncada 
    SS - Anderson
    3b-  Sanchez, but 2b for him and 3b for Moncada makes sense defensively and offensively 
    C  - Narvaez - just a stopgap, not enough power
    LF - ????
    CF - Leury Garcia  -bat and defense work for CF, bat doesn't work for LF
    RF - Avi Garcia - Sox control him through 2019
    DH - Delmonico/Davidson platoon
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:09 am

    rmapasad wrote:Here are all the rankings of Sox players v. others in majors at their positions this year. 

    C - Narvaez (22nd)  1.5 WAR  - bad at throwing out runners though

    ALSO READ HIS PITCH FRAMING SUCKS

    1b- Abreu (4th)  4.2 WAR - his best season since 2014

    2b - Sanchez (17th)  2.1 WAR - his best season -good defense, average offense
           Moncada (35th) . 8 WAR - his rank goes to 25th w/500 PA's - good power, speed, BB's,  
                                                  too many strikeouts depress his BA, defense slightly below average
    3b - Sanchez (23rd)  2.1 WAR
           Davidson (61st)  -.8 WAR - RHed Adam Dunn without the BB's - whiffs, HR's, bad defense 

    SS  - Anderson (39th)  .3 WAR - tough year, worst BB /highest K for all SS's, good power though

    LF -  Leury Garcia (35th) 1.1 WAR - ranks 24th w/ 500 PA's - good defense, so-so offense for OF
            Nick Delmonico (40th) 1.0 WAR - would rank 13th w/ 500 PA's - pleasant surprise but
            his majors OPS was 855 v. 769 AAA and he had 3 times # of AB's in AAA. Could he sustain his
            Aug/Sept White Sox performance over a whole season ? - NO
            Willy Garcia (64th) - 0 WAR - BUT STRONG AS A BULL

    CF -  Leury Garcia (39th)  1.1 WAR
            Adam Engel  (62nd)   -.7 WAR - THE MODERN DAY RUSTY KUNTZ

    RF  - Avi Garcia (6th)  4.2 WAR  

    DH - Nick Delmonico (5th) - 1.0 WAR
            Matt Davidson (17th) -  -.8 WAR  -  only 14 teams have DH's - NOT 15?

         
    For 2018 

    1B- Abreu - last year of Sox's control - THOUGHT IT WAS 2019
    2b -Moncada  - CAN YOU SAY LOU WHITTAKER
    SS - Anderson - CAN YOU SAY ALAN TRAMMELL
    3b-  Sanchez, but 2b for him and 3b for Moncada makes sense defensively and offensively 
    C  - Narvaez - just a stopgap, not enough power - A PLATTOON/2ND STRINGER AT A POSITION WHERE PLATOONS MAKE SENSE AND THE 2ND STRINGER NEEDS TO BE STRONG
    LF - ???? - WILY!!!!!  TO COMPLETE THE GARCIA TRIPLET OUTFIELD!!!!

    CF - Leury Garcia  -bat and defense work for CF, bat doesn't work for LF
    RF - Avi Garcia - Sox control him through 2019
    DH - Delmonico/Davidson platoon - ODDLY, BOTH CAN PLAY 3B


    AFTER READING ROGER'S ANALYSIS


    I would think one of the top questions is, just how good is Yolmer Sanchez.


    Answer, not good enough to be moving Moncada around the diamond.  Sanchez 2017 line is 267/319/413.  That is consistant with his minor league record.  Now his only 25, so maybe he improves.  However, he lacks the tools of an superstar so any improvement is probably limited.  Where Moncada should play should be determined by what is the best position for Moncada.  No way in hell I move him to accomodate Sanchez mediocre bat.


    Is Yolmer better than any in house option for 3B or LF or DH?  Maybe.  At least for 2018.  But Yolmer would soon be forced out of the OF by LouBOB - Micker and the Blake.  Throw in Eloy Jiminez and now DH is covered as well.  So leave Sanchez at 3B and rotate him with Davidson and Delmonico until jake Burger is ready.


    THE FOCUS FOR 2018


    the key to the future at the MLB level is the development of Moncada and Anderson as the DP combo.  The focus at the minor league level will be the superstar outfield of the future.  LouBOB - Micker and the Blake theoretically can all start at High A in Winston Salem.  Eloy Jiminez, given his performance at AA, could start 2018 in AAA Charlotte and with a bit of luck, arrive in Chicago to stay somewhere between July and September


    THE KARK envisions THESE 6 PLUS Zach Collins as fixtures in the White Sox for much of the next decade of the 20's.  I doubt the White Sox can trade for any prospects that are better.  so now its just a waiting game.  that is why I am so eager to get some stop gaps like LuCroy and Cain.  Its not some WIN NOW on the cheap as some has distorted.  More like I've seen enough of Kevan Smith and Adam Engel and a few other mediocrities.  PS, keep DH open so you can play the questionable talent with the hope at least one develops


    THE FOCUS FOR 2019



    the biggest questions are HOW DO GARCIA AND ABREU fit in to the teams future.  LouBob - Micker and the Blake plus Eloy Jiminez could make Garcia obsolete. Ditto Abreu.  However, Abreu has the mystique of being some cuban grandpa type that will help Moncada and Robert.  the KARK see the logic in extending both.  But DO NOT give them no trade clauses.  The White sox have 4 stud OF prospects.  Hopefully Jiminez is ready this year.  Then the White Sox can phase in the rest one year at a time.  This means keeping Garcia until at least 2021.  Abreu should stay as long as he can hit.  
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:41 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:Here are all the rankings of Sox players v. others in majors at their positions this year. 

    C - Narvaez (22nd)  1.5 WAR  - bad at throwing out runners though

    ALSO READ HIS PITCH FRAMING SUCKS

    1b- Abreu (4th)  4.2 WAR - his best season since 2014

    2b - Sanchez (17th)  2.1 WAR - his best season -good defense, average offense
           Moncada (35th) . 8 WAR - his rank goes to 25th w/500 PA's - good power, speed, BB's,  
                                                  too many strikeouts depress his BA, defense slightly below average
    3b - Sanchez (23rd)  2.1 WAR
           Davidson (61st)  -.8 WAR - RHed Adam Dunn without the BB's - whiffs, HR's, bad defense 

    SS  - Anderson (39th)  .3 WAR - tough year, worst BB /highest K for all SS's, good power though

    LF -  Leury Garcia (35th) 1.1 WAR - ranks 24th w/ 500 PA's - good defense, so-so offense for OF
            Nick Delmonico (40th) 1.0 WAR - would rank 13th w/ 500 PA's - pleasant surprise but
            his majors OPS was 855 v. 769 AAA and he had 3 times # of AB's in AAA. Could he sustain his
            Aug/Sept White Sox performance over a whole season ? - NO
            Willy Garcia (64th) - 0 WAR - BUT STRONG AS A BULL

    CF -  Leury Garcia (39th)  1.1 WAR
            Adam Engel  (62nd)   -.7 WAR - THE MODERN DAY RUSTY KUNTZ

    RF  - Avi Garcia (6th)  4.2 WAR  

    DH - Nick Delmonico (5th) - 1.0 WAR
            Matt Davidson (17th) -  -.8 WAR  -  only 14 teams have DH's - NOT 15?

         
    For 2018 

    1B- Abreu - last year of Sox's control - THOUGHT IT WAS 2019
    2b -Moncada  - CAN YOU SAY LOU WHITTAKER
    SS - Anderson - CAN YOU SAY ALAN TRAMMELL
    3b-  Sanchez, but 2b for him and 3b for Moncada makes sense defensively and offensively 
    C  - Narvaez - just a stopgap, not enough power - A PLATTOON/2ND STRINGER AT A POSITION WHERE PLATOONS MAKE SENSE AND THE 2ND STRINGER NEEDS TO BE STRONG
    LF - ???? - WILY!!!!!  TO COMPLETE THE GARCIA TRIPLET OUTFIELD!!!!

    CF - Leury Garcia  -bat and defense work for CF, bat doesn't work for LF
    RF - Avi Garcia - Sox control him through 2019
    DH - Delmonico/Davidson platoon - ODDLY, BOTH CAN PLAY 3B


    AFTER READING ROGER'S ANALYSIS


    I would think one of the top questions is, just how good is Yolmer Sanchez.


    Answer, not good enough to be moving Moncada around the diamond.  Sanchez 2017 line is 267/319/413.  That is consistant with his minor league record.  Now his only 25, so maybe he improves.  However, he lacks the tools of an superstar so any improvement is probably limited.  Where Moncada should play should be determined by what is the best position for Moncada.  No way in hell I move him to accomodate Sanchez mediocre bat.


    Is Yolmer better than any in house option for 3B or LF or DH?  Maybe.  At least for 2018.  But Yolmer would soon be forced out of the OF by LouBOB - Micker and the Blake.  Throw in Eloy Jiminez and now DH is covered as well.  So leave Sanchez at 3B and rotate him with Davidson and Delmonico until jake Burger is ready.


    THE FOCUS FOR 2018


    the key to the future at the MLB level is the development of Moncada and Anderson as the DP combo.  The focus at the minor league level will be the superstar outfield of the future.  LouBOB - Micker and the Blake theoretically can all start at High A in Winston Salem.  Eloy Jiminez, given his performance at AA, could start 2018 in AAA Charlotte and with a bit of luck, arrive in Chicago to stay somewhere between July and September


    THE KARK envisions THESE 6 PLUS Zach Collins as fixtures in the White Sox for much of the next decade of the 20's.  I doubt the White Sox can trade for any prospects that are better.  so now its just a waiting game.  that is why I am so eager to get some stop gaps like LuCroy and Cain.  Its not some WIN NOW on the cheap as some has distorted.  More like I've seen enough of Kevan Smith and Adam Engel and a few other mediocrities.  PS, keep DH open so you can play the questionable talent with the hope at least one develops


    THE FOCUS FOR 2019



    the biggest questions are HOW DO GARCIA AND ABREU fit in to the teams future.  LouBob - Micker and the Blake plus Eloy Jiminez could make Garcia obsolete. Ditto Abreu.  However, Abreu has the mystique of being some cuban grandpa type that will help Moncada and Robert.  the KARK see the logic in extending both.  But DO NOT give them no trade clauses.  The White sox have 4 stud OF prospects.  Hopefully Jiminez is ready this year.  Then the White Sox can phase in the rest one year at a time.  This means keeping Garcia until at least 2021.  Abreu should stay as long as he can hit.  

    I do agree with you that Sanchez's offensive upside looks limited enough that it's not worth the Sox doing backflips to accommodate him.  However, neither should it come down to Moncada v. Sanchez for a starting job in 2018.  They both deserve to start.   Sanchez was third most valuable Sox player in 2017 and 2nd best defensive IFer in the entire Amer League.  You don't put 3.5 WAR guys on the bench particularly on a team like the Sox where it means  scrubs like Davidson, Tilson (or Engel), or Leury (or Wily) Garcia get starting gigs instead. 
    Plus, IMO the Sox should consider position flexibility for Moncada since 2b may not be his greatest and best use. Moncada is not considered a good defensive 2bman, certainly not a prototypical ball handler like Sanchez plus Moncada's arm suits 3b and his speed suits OF.
    Good teams like Dodgers, Indians and Cubs aren't afraid to move guys around to different spots to get their most valuable lineup on the field.  Nor is it a develop-stunter to do that.  Indians have had Jose Ramirez play 2b, 3b and LF in last couple years and he's put up 4.7 and 6.7 WARs. In fact, Ramirez's speed/arm/offensive profile is very similar to Moncada's.
    Plus, I don't think either Burger and Rutherford can be counted on at 3b or LF anytime soon, or possibly at all. Both were still at low A level this year at age 21.  Neither did enough to get promoted,
    where both Moncada and Sanchez were in AAA at age 21.

    Robert and Jiminez look like they could be future stars in the making.  Jury is still out, IMO, on Rutherford, Burger, and Cordell.   Basabe, Fisher, and Gillaspie backslid this year.  However, it's worth watching what happens to Tito Polo, Matt Rose, Jacob Cooper and Micker Adolfo in 2018.  At least one worthwhile major leaguer could come from that group. Another sleeper is Seby Zavala at Catcher.  Little old for A+ at 23 but his 861 OPS played well and Catchers sometimes come up at later ages .

    So I think 2017's good news for the Sox was:
    1 - Their lineup of disappointments, scrubs, failures, etc.  produced some survivors like Avi Garcia,
         Sanchez, Narvaez, Leury Garcia, and Delmonico. How many of these guys backslide in 2018 is hard to
         say but they've earned the right to enough playing time to see if they have any future with the Sox.
    2-  Jose Abreu bounced back to much closer to his 2014 season.  And you're right, he is under control through 2019 although not contractually but via arb.
    3 - Hahn re-stocked the Sox system with young pitchers and hitters so the minors are no longer a wasteland as has been the case for last 8-10 years.  Now it's just seeing which cream rises to the top over the next 2-3 years.
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:59 pm

    BELIEVE!!
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:20 am

    IF MONCADA IS A BETTER 3B THAN 2B THAN MOVE HIM

    BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SANCHEZ IS THE TALLEST MIDGET.  BEING BETTER THAN WILY GARCIA DOES NOT JUSTIFY BEING LABELED A LONG TERM SOLUTION.  NOW IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT SANCHEZ CAN PROVIDE GOLD GLOVE CALIBER DEFENSE AT 2B WHILE HITTING AT OR SLIGHTLY ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE, THEN THAT IS SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.  HOWEVER, I DON'T RECALL YOU EVER MAKING THAT ARGUMENT

    MAYBE SANCHEZ NEEDS TO BE TRADED.  3.5 WAR SUGGESTS HE IS AT PEAK TRADE VALUE
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:03 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:IF MONCADA IS A BETTER 3B THAN 2B THAN MOVE HIM

    BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SANCHEZ IS THE TALLEST MIDGET.  BEING BETTER THAN WILY GARCIA DOES NOT JUSTIFY BEING LABELED A LONG TERM SOLUTION.  NOW IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT SANCHEZ CAN PROVIDE GOLD GLOVE CALIBER DEFENSE AT 2B WHILE HITTING AT OR SLIGHTLY ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE, THEN THAT IS SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.  HOWEVER, I DON'T RECALL YOU EVER MAKING THAT ARGUMENT

    MAYBE SANCHEZ NEEDS TO BE TRADED.  3.5 WAR SUGGESTS HE IS AT PEAK TRADE VALUE

    That IS my argument about Sanchez at least as to 2017 season.  His 732 OPS was right about league average for 2b but his defense was the best, a shade better than perennial defensive studs like Dozier and Pedroia.  But could his offense sink back ?  Yeah, since he never even cracked .600 in his prior 3 seasons with the Sox. But his AAA OPS at pretty young ages was mid 700's, so he might be able to maintain.  Of course, he'll never be the 800+ guy Moncada will.  
    IMO, boils down to some simple math.  Say Sanchez can stay a 3 WAR guy at 2b.  Moncada might be a 5 WAR at 2b and 4.5 WAR at 3b or LF.   You get a 2 WAR edge by playing Moncada at 2b over Sanchez but you get a 4-5 WAR edge by moving Moncada to 3b or LF where you have replacement level (or worse) guys like Davidson and Wily Garcia.  
    Of course, Sanchez returns to the utility role if his hitting regresses or becomes trade bait if the Sox have  3-4 WAR guys for 3b and/or LF.   They won't have such guys for a couple years and that assumes  Burger and Rutherford start hitting a lot better.  In the meantime, I think Sanchez will have to prove he can have another solid season in 2018 to show 2017 wasn't just  a fluke.  
         



    Where Moncada's OPS, even given his terrible first month, ended up at 750 about 20 pts above Leag Avg.    Moncada's defense was either a shade above or below league average depending on which metric is used.
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:52 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:IF MONCADA IS A BETTER 3B THAN 2B THAN MOVE HIM

    BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACT THAT SANCHEZ IS THE TALLEST MIDGET.  BEING BETTER THAN WILY GARCIA DOES NOT JUSTIFY BEING LABELED A LONG TERM SOLUTION.  NOW IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT SANCHEZ CAN PROVIDE GOLD GLOVE CALIBER DEFENSE AT 2B WHILE HITTING AT OR SLIGHTLY ABOVE LEAGUE AVERAGE, THEN THAT IS SOMETHING TO CONSIDER.  HOWEVER, I DON'T RECALL YOU EVER MAKING THAT ARGUMENT

    MAYBE SANCHEZ NEEDS TO BE TRADED.  3.5 WAR SUGGESTS HE IS AT PEAK TRADE VALUE

    That IS my argument about Sanchez at least as to 2017 season.  His 732 OPS was right about league average for 2b but his defense was the best, a shade better than perennial defensive studs like Dozier and Pedroia.  But could his offense sink back ?  Yeah, since he never even cracked .600 in his prior 3 seasons with the Sox. But his AAA OPS at pretty young ages was mid 700's, so he might be able to maintain.  Of course, he'll never be the 800+ guy Moncada will.  
    IMO, boils down to some simple math.  Say Sanchez can stay a 3 WAR guy at 2b.  Moncada might be a 5 WAR at 2b and 4.5 WAR at 3b or LF.   You get a 2 WAR edge by playing Moncada at 2b over Sanchez but you get a 4-5 WAR edge by moving Moncada to 3b or LF where you have replacement level (or worse) guys like Davidson and Wily Garcia.  
    Of course, Sanchez returns to the utility role if his hitting regresses or becomes trade bait if the Sox have  3-4 WAR guys for 3b and/or LF.   They won't have such guys for a couple years and that assumes  Burger and Rutherford start hitting a lot better.  In the meantime, I think Sanchez will have to prove he can have another solid season in 2018 to show 2017 wasn't just  a fluke.  

         



    Where Moncada's OPS, even given his terrible first month, ended up at 750 about 20 pts above Leag Avg.    Moncada's defense was either a shade above or below league average depending on which metric is used.


    Still sounds like you are advocating for the tallest midget.


    Plus I don't buy your WAR analysis.  It assumes a linearity that simply doesn't exist.


    Moving Moncada to 3B only makes sense if
    1)  Sanchez is truly a gold glove caliber 2B while Moncada is basically average
    2)  Sanchez can remain at least league average offensively


    I realize that the answer may well be yes to both, in which case make the move.  


    But let's no forget the purpose of the rebuild is to find quality players at each position.  Not just guys that are better than Adam Engel
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:28 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    Still sounds like you are advocating for the tallest midget.
    Plus I don't buy your WAR analysis.  It assumes a linearity that simply doesn't exist.
    Moving Moncada to 3B only makes sense if
    1)  Sanchez is truly a gold glove caliber 2B while Moncada is basically average
    2)  Sanchez can remain at least league average offensively
    I realize that the answer may well be yes to both, in which case make the move.  
    But let's no forget the purpose of the rebuild is to find quality players at each position.  Not just guys that are better than Adam Engel

    There are only so many studs to go around.   Only 42 position players had 4 WAR or better (avg. 1.4 per team).   Sox happened to have 2 such guys (Abreu 4.4 and Avi Garcia 4.2).   But Sox suffered from an acute shortage of decent contributors like Sanchez ( 2 - 4 WAR).   The decent steady Eddie types have real value.  The Twins got 60% of their position player WAR from such types.   In fact, their best player (Dozier 4.3) was no better than Abreu. 
    Sure a few teams like Colorado, Nationals, Astros got considerably more from their stars than the Sox did from Abreu/Garcia.  But the real difference is that playoff teams got on average 8 more wins from their 2-4 WAR guys than the Sox did.  

    Bottom line:  There is a scarcity of both stars and 2-4 win guys.   Smart teams keep both types. So they don't have to rely on 0 WAR (or even worse like Engel and Davidson).


    smart teams replace their 0 WAR guys with 2-3 WAR guys.  Dumb teams think they can win by replacing 2 WAR guys with 4 WAR guys.  There simply aren't enough
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:58 am

    AGAIN, sounds like a tallest midget argument.


    Plus this scarcity thing sounds weak.  Claiming there are only 42 Allstars to go around is an excuse, not a reason.


    Again, you don't move Moncada off 2B unless Moncada is not that good of 2B.  And that still begs the questions as to whether or not Sanchez is a real long term solution.


    HE CAN BE


    But you seemed more focused on talking down the Wily Garcia's of the White Sox org, than talking up Sanchez.  I'd feel far more comfortable knowing that Sanchez will battle for a glove glove at 2B than hearing the excuse, at least he isn't Matt Davidson,  And who's to say Davidson doesn't develop...


    Sometimes part timers need to stay part timers in order to retain their value.  You don't mess with a Moncada just because Sanchez looks good on a spreadsheet
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:53 am


    Sometimes part timers need to stay part timers in order to retain their value.  You don't mess with a Moncada just because Sanchez looks good on a spreadsheet>>
    A guy who can play GG caliber defense and hit at league average rate is not a "midget" and on the 2017 Sox he was one of the redwoods.  Nor was he a part-timer with 500+ PA's.
    All that said, I still have suspicions about Sanchez's hitting since his 20% K rate has to come down and his 6% BB rate has to go up to insure that he'll still be decent if his BABIP dips, which it could.  He's only 26 this year so some improvement could be made. But his best position is still 2b which is where offense is less needed than 3b.

    As to Davidson, his defense sucks and his K rate is embarrassing even by Adam Dunn standards.  Those are not easily cured problems.  He has to make big changes to his swing to make more consistent contact or he will be a perennial .220 hitter.

    I completely dispute the notion that anyone is "messing" with Moncada by moving him to a position where he adds overall greater value to the team and for which his skills are suited.  Jose Ramirez was not hindered in the least by switching from 3b to LF to 2b and back to 3b, etc.  Freddie Freeman did just fine going to 3b this year after playing 1b his whole career.

    But I think the Sox will follow the "in the box" thinking and believe you shouldn't tamper with a prospect by (gasp) changing his position.  Part of the reason they are looking up at the Indians who believe in using their talent more creatively.  6 of their 9 main starters this year played at more than one position, including Kipnis, who switched to CF for a while. 

    Knowing the Sox, the only way Sanchez gets regular AB's this year is at 3b. While his defense is still good there more will be expected of him offensively than he may be capable of.  So I think the end result will be he sinks back to the utility role. Which is no great tragedy but still not the highest and best use of resources.
    At 2b with Sanchez the Sox have a guy with at least one season of proven adequacy and still young enough to improve.  With 3b and LF, the Sox have replacement or worse level players for whom adequacy would be a big leap and the best 3b/LF prospects (Burger and Rutherford) were in low A last year and didn't do all that well.
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:31 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Sometimes part timers need to stay part timers in order to retain their value.  You don't mess with a Moncada just because Sanchez looks good on a spreadsheet>>
    A guy who can play GG caliber defense and hit at league average rate is not a "midget" and on the 2017 Sox he was one of the redwoods.  Nor was he a part-timer with 500+ PA's.
    All that said, I still have suspicions about Sanchez's hitting since his 20% K rate has to come down and his 6% BB rate has to go up to insure that he'll still be decent if his BABIP dips, which it could.  He's only 26 this year so some improvement could be made. But his best position is still 2b which is where offense is less needed than 3b.

    Like I've been asking, is this for real, is he a hidden gem?  Is Moncada just average defensively at 2B?  Two yes and I agree with the move.  But if Moncada is capable of a gold glove at 2B, I leave Moncada there.  I consider Moncada's defensive at 2B to be far more important than how many scrubs Sanchez may or may not be better than

    As to Davidson, his defense sucks and his K rate is embarrassing even by Adam Dunn standards.  Those are not easily cured problems.  He has to make big changes to his swing to make more consistent contact or he will be a perennial .220 hitter.

    In all likelihood, he's a RH platoon DH that can be a warm body on the infield corners and maybe LF.  Lucky for him, OUR White Sox still have plenty of open lineup spots in 2018 to give him more at bats than he probably deserves

    I completely dispute the notion that anyone is "messing" with Moncada by moving him to a position where he adds overall greater value to the team and for which his skills are suited.  Jose Ramirez was not hindered in the least by switching from 3b to LF to 2b and back to 3b, etc.  Freddie Freeman did just fine going to 3b this year after playing 1b his whole career.

    Again, play him where HE is best suited defensively.  Meaning, don't stretch his defense.  I don't want Moncada at 2B if his glove there is just average, But if he can win a gold glove there like the HAWK thinks, keep him at 2B.  Moncada-Sanchez isn't Jeter-AROD


    But I think the Sox will follow the "in the box" thinking and believe you shouldn't tamper with a prospect by (gasp) changing his position.  Part of the reason they are looking up at the Indians who believe in using their talent more creatively.  6 of their 9 main starters this year played at more than one position, including Kipnis, who switched to CF for a while. 

    Knowing the Sox, the only way Sanchez gets regular AB's this year is at 3b. While his defense is still good there more will be expected of him offensively than he may be capable of.  So I think the end result will be he sinks back to the utility role. Which is no great tragedy but still not the highest and best use of resources.
    At 2b with Sanchez the Sox have a guy with at least one season of proven adequacy and still young enough to improve.  With 3b and LF, the Sox have replacement or worse level players for whom adequacy would be a big leap and the best 3b/LF prospects (Burger and Rutherford) were in low A last year and didn't do all that well.


    I see no point moving Moncada to 3B just to move him back to 2B once Burger is ready.
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:42 pm

    Here's a year old scouting report on Moncada

    Defense
    Despite a confluence of elite tools, Moncada does not have a clear defensive position. Before he signed with the Red Sox he played shortstop, yet he spent most of his time in the minor leagues learning second base. With Dustin Pedroia handling second base in the big leagues, Moncada slipped over to third as a baptism-by-fire experiment.
    Scouts believe Moncada has the arm to play the left side of the infield despite his clunky glove work. It stands to reason that if Moncada can handle shortstop and third base he should easily make the adjustment to second base, but this isn’t necessarily true.
    Second base presents an entirely different set of mechanics regarding glovework and footwork. The latter is Moncada’s biggest issue according to scouts. Conventional wisdom ignores the nuances of flipping from one side of the infield to other, perpetuating the idea that shortstops should also be able to play second. And while true, it’s not as easy as it looks. Moncada profiles much better at third base given his arm strength but scouts seem to think he can handle second base as well.
    Arm Strength
    Moncada’s arm strength grades between 60 and 70 on the 20-80 scale. This leaves open the possibility of a move to the outfield if he struggles to loosen up in the infield. It seems scouts don’t believe this will happen but given his future at the plate, there’s a place for him to play somewhere on the field.
    There is no doubt Yoan Moncada is a special kind of talent that doesn’t come around often. The White Sox snagging such premier ability is a victory in its own right and with a little more polish Moncada is ready to sparkle in Chicago.
    I like that Moncada started out as an SS.  don't like that his glove work is described as clunky.  I would think common sense would dictate letting this very special talent see if he can be gold glove caliber a 2B.  When you are rebuilding, you need to gamble on as many high ceiling players as possible.  I see no point on hedging against having a crap 3B in 2020 two years b4 the fact just because a guy who screams medicority happened to outplay a bunch of Quad A'ers that will be long gone in a couple years.

    Now that I think of it, maybe the White Sox could accerlate the rebuilding process by signing Mike Moustakas.
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:42 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    I would think common sense would dictate letting this very special talent see if he can be gold glove caliber a 2B.  When you are rebuilding, you need to gamble on as many high ceiling players as possible.  I see no point on hedging against having a crap 3B in 2020 two years b4 the fact just because a guy who screams medicority happened to outplay a bunch of Quad A'ers that will be long gone in a couple years.

    Yeah, I can't say that your points are invalid.  But it's still kinda dumb to put a competent 2bman into a 250 AB utility role so your top prospect, who could play anywhere, can stay at 2b meaning 500 AB's at 3b to stiffs. 
    Granted, Sanchez is like Avi Garcia in that there was no big bump in power, his K rate declined modestly, [size=13]his BB rate is still subpar, and the biggest boost came from a 100+ pt jump in BABIP.   So the both of them could fall back in 2018 in which case Sanchez belongs in a utility role.   But like Avi, I think Sanchez deserves the chance to prove whether the progress made this year will hold up and further improvements made.  Unlike Avi, Sanchez has defensive prowess that means his bat doesn't have to be his sole source of value. [/size]
    Last but not least, the Sox's prospects at 3b, LF, and 1b are far from sure things, so having a decent regular at 2b for the next 3-4 years at least allows the Sox to maneuver the versatile Moncada into the spot of greatest team need. Just like Indians did with Jose Ramirez, who is a legit MVP candidate this year.
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:20 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    I would think common sense would dictate letting this very special talent see if he can be gold glove caliber a 2B.  When you are rebuilding, you need to gamble on as many high ceiling players as possible.  I see no point on hedging against having a crap 3B in 2020 two years b4 the fact just because a guy who screams medicority happened to outplay a bunch of Quad A'ers that will be long gone in a couple years.

    Yeah, I can't say that your points are invalid.  But it's still kinda dumb to put a competent 2bman into a 250 AB utility role so your top prospect, who could play anywhere, can stay at 2b meaning 500 AB's at 3b to stiffs. 
    Granted, Sanchez is like Avi Garcia in that there was no big bump in power, his K rate declined modestly, [size=13]his BB rate is still subpar, and the biggest boost came from a 100+ pt jump in BABIP.   So the both of them could fall back in 2018 in which case Sanchez belongs in a utility role.   But like Avi, I think Sanchez deserves the chance to prove whether the progress made this year will hold up and further improvements made.  Unlike Avi, Sanchez has defensive prowess that means his bat doesn't have to be his sole source of value. [/size]
    Last but not least, the Sox's prospects at 3b, LF, and 1b are far from sure things, so having a decent regular at 2b for the next 3-4 years at least allows the Sox to maneuver the versatile Moncada into the spot of greatest team need. Just like Indians did with Jose Ramirez, who is a legit MVP candidate this year.

    Somehow I doubt Yolmer will be limited to 250 AB in 2018 if he really is this good.  He had 484 in 2017 and I doubt anybody predicted that.  The man will find his at bats if he is for real


    As for Moncada, he needs to play his best defensive position.  If he is a better 3b than 2b and Yolmer is a hidden gem, then by all means make the move.  But to try and predict what the biggest whole in 2020 will be, then to move Moncada there because that is the year all the magic is suppose to happen, does not make any sense to me.  What the Indians did with Jose Ramirez is immaterial to this discussion.  One of the keys to this rebuilding project, one rarely mentioned, is to make sure you have a top notch defense.  Moncada is suppose to have gold glove talent at 2B.  He deserves a chance to prove it.  The last thing I do is move him all over the diamond just to accomodate the tallest midget de jour
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:04 am

    I think Sanchez has earned the chance to show whether he hits well enough to stay regularly in the lineup.  If that means he goes to 3b to do that, so be it.  However, the way I see it is this: Sanchez is a natural 2bman, his arm, footwork, pivoting fit that spot.  Moncada is a former SS who was converted into a 2bman and his footwork/pivoting isn't ideal for that spot and his strong arm and speed are somewhat wasted there.   Having a good hitter at a glove spot is always great.  But if you have a natural 2bman who hits enough, and a natural 3bman/OFer who hits well enough for those bat spots and would be a plus defender there, why bench the natural 2bman so as to put a guy not as good at 2b to get the offensive edge ?  When it's not a question of Moncada being in the lineup.  He will be no matter where he plays.  
    But again if Sanchez is a 650 OPS guy, then he is utility. I'm making no prediction of his hitting going forward.   I wouldn't be surprised to see him slip back, but neither would it be a surprise to see him hold steady in the low-mid 700's. 
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    Re: 2017 Scorecard

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:51 pm

    If Moncada is a natural 3B fine.  I never said keep him at 2B just to get a bat in a glove position.  In fact I believe I made it clear that I do not believe in stretching the defense in order to increase offense.  I'll even go a step further.  If Moncada is a natural 3B but just a average 2B, he should play 3B regardless because he projects to be far superior than both Yolmer Sanchez and Matt Davidson put together.


    My whole point is that you don't move Moncada all over the diamond in order to prevent something that may or may not be an issue in 2 or 3 years.  You also don't go changing your lineup for Yolmer Sanchez unless you think Yolmer Sanchez is a hidden gem.  And I have also acknowledged that there is a real probability that he is.  But this notion that Yolmer Sanchez should just be handed 2B because you are afraid Wily Garcia will be stinking up LF come 2020...  Well, that is silliness to me.


    Speaking of maximizing the defense, how soon b4 Eloy Jiminez is handed a 1B mitt?  the scouting reports suggests he cannot swing the leather like LouBOB - Micker and the Blake.  In fact, I believe he rates below Avisail Garcia in the glove dept.

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