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    Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:43 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:LORENZO CAIN FOR CF AND LEADOFF!!!!!!!




    Now lets hear the term paper writer tout Adam Engel and this bullshit theory that wins b4 2020 don't count


    Sox have geared themselves for 2019-2020 with the trades made this year.   So why
    make win-now moves this winter

    Because A) 2019-2020 are not set in stone, just ask the Twins and B) my brain is more complicated then your over simplified buzz terms.

    and sign expensive free agents who will (a) be on the downslide of their careers by 2020

    Its quite possible for a MLB Player to still be good at age 34.  so spare me your oversimplistic gross generalizations


    (b) be fixtures in the lineup nonetheless due to their salaries

    Once again Roger acts as if his specualtion is bona fide fact.  According to Roger, Cain will suck and the White Sox will be forced to play him.  Never acknowledging the real possibility that he can age well and be an asset or a trade chip

    and (c) possibly block playing time for prospects coming up ? 

    Who are the CF-leadoff prospects for the White Sox?!?!?  I really don't see any that will be ready in 2018-2019.  Or do you plan to double talk your nonsense regarding wily Garcia for the 2018 season?

    You take as much of a chance of a guy like Cain losing his wheels and his value at age 34 as you do that a guy like Luis Robert will be a bust.  


    Where is the guarentee that Robert will be ready by 2020?  and how retarded is it to think playing an all rookie outfield in 2020 wins anything?


    Maybe instead of focusing on cliches, you should focus on the reality on the field.  which is a whole lot of poor leadoff hitters


    That all said, if somebody wants to overspend on Cain, and/or give him way too many years, then let him go.  


    And who knows, maybe the KARK is dead wrong.  For all I know, Adam Engel plans to spend this winter with Avisail Garcia learning how to hit lucky groundballs
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:06 pm



    Because A) 2019-2020 are not set in stone, just ask the Twins and B) my brain is more complicated then your over simplified buzz terms.
    The Twins contending this year came  from their younger guys like Buxton, Sano, Berrios. Rosario and Palanco  maturing this year.  ZERO of it came from free agents
    they signed this year or last.
    Teams don't stockpile expensive free agents for the future. They know you get your greatest return on 30-32 yr old FA's in first two years of their contracts so only sign them if you're contending now.  You don't piss the first couple years of a $ 16 mil per contract away on a vet to mentor younger players and then hope he'll still be good at ages 33-34 when the odds of his decline are high.

    Its quite possible for a MLB Player to still be good at age 34.  so spare me your oversimplistic gross generalizations>>
    You are bucking big odds with 33-34 year olds speed-oriented players like Cain.
    Guys like Ellsbury, Reyes, Span, Aybar, and Pedroia have lost significant value between their age 30-31 and 33-34 seasons. Brett Gardner has been the only one of these guys to maintain his value.
     He's looking for a big payday ($ 16-20 mil per year range) and 4-5 years.  That's not sensible for the Sox unless they contend in 2018-2019.   You don't want this guy clogging up payroll in 2020-2021,putting up a measly 1.7 WAR like Elsbury is (Yolmer Sanchez was 1.9 WAR this year by comparison).  


    Once again Roger acts as if his specualtion is bona fide fact.  According to Roger, Cain will suck and the White Sox will be forced to play him.  Never acknowledging the real possibility that he can age well and be an asset or a trade chip
    Cain has already lost 15 runs off his peak defensive value from 3 years ago and he turns 32 next year..  Obviously he can still hit and steal some bases.  But if he's losing a step in the field losing it on the basepaths and to 1st base on IF grounders may be soon to follow.   He may be fine in 2018 and possibly 2019.  But by 2020-2021, he's a probable payroll albatross.  He makes sense for teams that intend to contend in 2018-2019. 


    Who are the CF-leadoff prospects for the White Sox?!?!?  I really don't see any that will be ready in 2018-2019.  Or do you plan to double talk your nonsense regarding wily Garcia for the 2018 season?
    Where is the guarentee that Robert will be ready by 2020?  and how retarded is it to think playing an all rookie outfield in 2020 wins anything?


    Robert had an incredible .491 OBP off just a .315 BA because he draws a lot of walks in addition to having a quick bat that should net him a decent BA going forward.  That looks pretty leadoff-y to me.
    Sure, he's got 4 levels of the minors to jump through but with his speed, defense, and plate discipline he could move fast and be in Chicago by mid-late 2019.  



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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:22 pm

    Robert played in rookie in 2017.  I highly doubt he jumps to AA to open 2018.

    So stop the bait and switch and realize he's blocking Adam Engel and Charlie Tilson.  Two guys you were always down on

    Sox ain't got nobody as good as Cain in 2018.  And Cain can always be traded if Robert or somebody else develops faster than expected.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:01 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Robert played in rookie in 2017.  I highly doubt he jumps to AA to open 2018.

    So stop the bait and switch and realize he's blocking Adam Engel and Charlie Tilson.  Two guys you were always down on

    Sox ain't got nobody as good as Cain in 2018.  And Cain can always be traded if Robert or somebody else develops faster than expected.

    OK, neither Leury Garcia, Tilson or Engel will be as good as  Cain in 2018 or even 2019.
    But so what if neither
    are win-now years ? Both 2018 and 2019 have a ton of question marks  - LF, CF, 3b, Catcher,
    and DH are not strong nor are 4-5 spots in the rotation and the back end of the bullpen.  Sox
    have no established Closer.  Plus, Anderson at SS had a disappointing 2017, Moncada is still
    a work in progress, and despite Avi's 2017 will his suckiness of the prior three years return again ?  

    One expensive FA vet like a 32 year old Lorenzo Cain is hardly the key to turning the whole
    ship around. If Sox are really a contender in 2018-2019, they need to up their payroll about
    $ 120 million. They need not only Cain, but Moustakos for 3b, Suzuki at Catcher, Carlos Gonzalez or
    JD Martinez for LF, Arrietta, Darvish, Alex Cobb for the rotation, Wade Davis for Closer.   You know
    damn well Reinsdorf is loving his sub $ 70 million payroll and has no intention to do another big splurge. 

    My choice for a splurge is 23 year old Shohai Ohtani ,plus it wouldn't even be a big splurge (only 10
    million due to new MLB rules).   These kind of things make far more sense for the Sox than bankrolling
    the decline years of 32 year old free agents. 
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:16 pm

    TALK ABOUT STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS

    BUT THAN, THAT IS HOW YOU ROLL
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:02 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Robert played in rookie in 2017.  I highly doubt he jumps to AA to open 2018.

    So stop the bait and switch and realize he's blocking Adam Engel and Charlie Tilson.  Two guys you were always down on

    Sox ain't got nobody as good as Cain in 2018.  And Cain can always be traded if Robert or somebody else develops faster than expected.

    OK, neither Leury Garcia, Tilson or Engel will be as good as  Cain in 2018 or even 2019.
    But so what if neither
    are win-now years ?

    This is a flawed premise.  It assumes a black or white scenario.  It assumes that there is nothing wrong with writing off 2018-2019.  It assumes the White Sox will actually meet the 2020 target year...

    Both 2018 and 2019 have a ton of question marks  - LF, CF, 3b, Catcher,
    and DH are not strong nor are 4-5 spots in the rotation and the back end of the bullpen.  Sox
    have no established Closer.  Plus, Anderson at SS had a disappointing 2017, Moncada is still
    a work in progress, and despite Avi's 2017 will his suckiness of the prior three years return again ?

    Talk about having tunnel vision will thinking deep inside the box...

    Cain answers one of those question marks.  The majority of the rest is up to the kids.  What you fail to realize is that if these kids don't step up, that also effects the rebuilding.  If these kids step up, they maybe they are in a position to go foe a 2nd wildcard.  If they don't, then some will need to be replaced.  so you will need a vet like Cain to trade


    One expensive FA vet like a 32 year old Lorenzo Cain is hardly the key to turning the whole
    ship around.

    Again you completely distort my position in order to present your straw man argument.  I never said Cain was the key.  Cain simply fills the gap at one of their weakest positions where by your own admission, the White Sox do not have a mlb ready or near ready prospect

    If Sox are really a contender in 2018-2019, they need to up their payroll about
    $ 120 million. They need not only Cain, but Moustakos for 3b, Suzuki at Catcher, Carlos Gonzalez or
    JD Martinez for LF, Arrietta, Darvish, Alex Cobb for the rotation, Wade Davis for Closer.

    Maybe they should sign Suzuki instead of LuCroy for the same reason they sign Cain

      You know
    damn well Reinsdorf is loving his sub $ 70 million payroll and has no intention to do another big splurge. 

    My choice for a splurge is 23 year old Shohai Ohtani ,plus it wouldn't even be a big splurge (only 10
    million due to new MLB rules).   These kind of things make far more sense for the Sox than bankrolling
    the decline years of 32 year old free agents. 

    This is a false choice, not a valid reason


    Plus Ohtani makes more sense for an NL team where he can play the OF at the beginning of the game then relieve in the later innings
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    Hawk Harrelson
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:11 pm

    I have zero problem with a two year deal for Cain.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:18 pm

    Hawk Harrelson wrote:I have zero problem with a two year deal for Cain.


    I thought you said the Sox should be done with win-now moves.  
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:55 pm

    Maybe they should sign Suzuki instead of LuCroy for the same reason they sign Cain >>
    Sox have 8 clear soft spots going into 2018 - Catcher, 3b, LF, CF , DH,
    # 4 SP, Closer, setup. This is also assuming that Anderson will rebound,  Garcia won't fall off too sharply or get hurt and Moncada will be a plus player in 2018. 
    How far will solving 2/8 of the problem get the Sox ? Either you're doing what it takes to become a competitor or not.  Half-in, half-out makes no sense.  Especially since a 32 year old Cain or 34 year old Suzuki will be in their decline phase in 2020-2021 when the rest of Sox youngsters may be ready to contribute.  
    Besides why would Cain want to come to the Sox, an iffy competitor for next two years, unless the Sox just blow him away with the money ? If Sox do that, then how tradeable is Cain later on when teams have to deal with his big remaining salary ?  
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:42 pm

    Besides why would Cain want to come to the Sox, an iffy competitor for next two years, unless the Sox just blow him away with the money ? 


    ******************************************


    NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD THROW MONEY AT HIM UNTIL HE SIGNS.  IN FACT, I BELIEVE I STATED IN BLACK IN WHITE THAT IF ANOTHER TEAM WANTS TO OVERPAY HIM OR GIVE HIM MORE YEARS, THEN LET HIM GO


    APPARENTLY YOU IGNORED THAT PORTION IN ORDER TO DELIBERATELY DISAGREEMENT WITH ME AND GIVE ONE OF YOUR OVERLY SIMPLISTIC LECTURES WHICH WOULD INSULT THE INTELLIGENCE OF A HIGH SCHOOLER


    BOTTOM LINE.  CAIN MAKES SENSE FOR THE WHITE SOX IS REASONABLE PRICED AND 3 YEARS TOPS.


    I WILL ADMIT THAT YOUR POINT OF HIM BEING ABLE TO GET MORE FROM ANOTHER TEAM IS A VERY DISTINCT REALITY.  IN THAT CASE, I'M HOPING ADAM ENGLES LEARNS HOW TO HIT LUCKY GROUNDBALLS FROM AVISAIL GARCIA BECAUSE ADAM ENGEL HAS QUITE THE SET OF TOOLS
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:44 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Hawk Harrelson wrote:I have zero problem with a two year deal for Cain.


    I thought you said the Sox should be done with win-now moves.  


    ROSEBOWL IS BEING PRACTICAL

    NO CF, NO LEADOFF HITTER.  THE GAMES STILL HAVE TO BE PLAYED.

    UNFORTUNATELY, 2 YEARS PROBABLY ISN'T ENOUGH, SO A PLAN B AS WELL AS A PLAN C SHOULD DEFINITELY BE WRITTEN
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    Re: Sox's Peanuts Payroll for 2018

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:57 pm

    NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD THROW MONEY AT HIM UNTIL HE SIGNS.  IN FACT, I BELIEVE I STATED IN BLACK IN WHITE THAT IF ANOTHER TEAM WANTS TO OVERPAY HIM OR GIVE HIM MORE YEARS, THEN LET HIM GO wrote:
    APPARENTLY YOU IGNORED THAT PORTION IN ORDER TO DELIBERATELY DISAGREEMENT WITH ME AND GIVE ONE OF YOUR OVERLY SIMPLISTIC LECTURES WHICH WOULD INSULT THE INTELLIGENCE OF A HIGH SCHOOLER

    BOTTOM LINE.  CAIN MAKES SENSE FOR THE WHITE SOX IS REASONABLE PRICED AND 3 YEARS TOPS.
    I WILL ADMIT THAT YOUR POINT OF HIM BEING ABLE TO GET MORE FROM ANOTHER TEAM IS A VERY DISTINCT REALITY.  IN THAT CASE, I'M HOPING ADAM ENGLES LEARNS HOW TO HIT LUCKY GROUNDBALLS FROM AVISAIL GARCIA BECAUSE ADAM ENGEL HAS QUITE THE SET OF TOOLS

    I was responding to your point that the Sox should get him on terms they want.
    Which probably aren't the terms Cain wants.  This will be his one and only shot at a big payday so why should he compromise ?  Only if the market for him has dried up and doubtful that will happen. 

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