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    Liriano to the DL

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    Liriano to the DL

    Post by Guest on Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:30 pm

    One of the main objects of affection on this board during the spring, Rymer Liriano, was placed on the DL this weekend:

    Liriano (hamstring) was placed on the 7-day DL on Saturday with Triple-A Charlotte.
    While the Charlotte Knights did not specify the nature of the injury, Liriano reportedly came up pulling his right hamstring after a groundout Thursday, so that is the presumed injury. He has some power and speed, and the White Sox are lacking in quality outfielders, so if he gets healthy and hits well with Charlotte, he could see a promotion this summer.
    I sure hope a hammy isn't one of those injuries that nag the heck out of you and makes you perform at 60% if you try to play thru it.
    I must admit that its beginning to look like Rymer Liriano is beginning to look more like Alejandro De Aza than Jose Guillen.  However I should point out that in 2012, De Aza was a good ballplayer.  Hopefully Liriano can be a 3 year wonder instead of just 1.
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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:21 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:One of the main objects of affection on this board during the spring, Rymer Liriano, was placed on the DL this weekend:

    Liriano (hamstring) was placed on the 7-day DL on Saturday with Triple-A Charlotte.
    While the Charlotte Knights did not specify the nature of the injury, Liriano reportedly came up pulling his right hamstring after a groundout Thursday, so that is the presumed injury. He has some power and speed, and the White Sox are lacking in quality outfielders, so if he gets healthy and hits well with Charlotte, he could see a promotion this summer.
    I sure hope a hammy isn't one of those injuries that nag the heck out of you and makes you perform at 60% if you try to play thru it.
    I must admit that its beginning to look like Rymer Liriano is beginning to look more like Alejandro De Aza than Jose Guillen.  However I should point out that in 2012, De Aza was a good ballplayer.  Hopefully Liriano can be a 3 year wonder instead of just 1.

    Interesting comp since Liriano and DeAza have some similarities from age 23-25.  Both had blistering short hops in the upper minors at age 23 that got them a promo to the bigs where they promptly fell on their faces. Which may have labeled them Quad A type players  and made their trip back to majors harder as did each missing a full year due to injury. 
    It took DeAza three seasons with 1100 PA's at AAA between ages 25-27 hitting .300 + each time to finally convince White Sox to give him another shot in the bigs. When he got it, he was a useful player from ages 27-30 ( 9.4 WAR during those 4 years). 
    So there might be hope for Liriano.  However, another prolonged DL stint might get the "injury-prone" label on him on top of the "bust" label he's still trying to overcome.  To get past these negative perceptions and get back on the radar again, Liriano (like DeAza) will have to put up 850-900 + OPS's in AAA. Hope he can do it, as he's got some talent which could eventually make him useful at the big league level.

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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by Guest on Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:26 pm

    Here was the basis for the KARK's man crush on Liriano


    2011 892 OPS in A+
    2015 843 OPS in AAA


    Now I must admit, in the beginning I was not fully aware of the extend of his face shattering injury when the whole topic started.


    So it seemed reasonable that Liriano, once adjusted fully to MLB would see another 50 point drop in OPS.  that translate to an RF with an OPS just under 800 who also would be a plus defender.  Not exactly Harold Baines, or even Magglio Ordonez, but compared to the last five years....


    ***********************


    Not to quibble over a few OPS points, but given the state of the outfield in the White Sox org, Liriano probably doesn't need that high of an OPS.  If he times it right, all he may have to do is show he can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.   The top OF prospects for the White Sox currently reside in A ball.


    ***********************


    Are we actually agreeing on a De Aza comp?!?!?!?!?!
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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:49 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Here was the basis for the KARK's man crush on Liriano
    2011 892 OPS in A+
    2015 843 OPS in AAA
    Now I must admit, in the beginning I was not fully aware of the extend of his face shattering injury when the whole topic started.
    So it seemed reasonable that Liriano, once adjusted fully to MLB would see another 50 point drop in OPS.  that translate to an RF with an OPS just under 800 who also would be a plus defender.  Not exactly Harold Baines, or even Magglio Ordonez, but compared to the last five years....

    **********************
    Not to quibble over a few OPS points, but given the state of the outfield in the White Sox org, Liriano probably doesn't need that high of an OPS.  If he times it right, all he may have to do is show he can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.   The top OF prospects for the White Sox currently reside in A ball.
    ***********************
    Are we actually agreeing on a De Aza comp?!?!?!?!?!


    Yeah, there are some similarities to DeAza - both pulled up to majors at age 23 based on thin evidence they were ready and neither were. Both careers set back at ages 24-25 from missing a year due to injury.  Both had mid 800's OPS in AAA then got traded by their parent clubs as apparently neither club felt that was good enough given their ages.  

    But look what it took for DeAza to get back to the majors. Two good seasons in AAA, the last one really good (.322 BA), to finally earn a pre-September MLB call-up at age 27. Yeah, Sox have a different situation now especially since they may deal Melky at midseason. But I think Liriano's blip on Sox screen could be getting smaller. His lousy spring training, and now this hammie strain. He's turning 26 and guys that age (like DeAza) can't just be decent (800-850 OPS) in AAA, they got to be tearing up to be considered real possibilities again.   Plus Avi and Wily Garcia are off to red-hot starts.  Wily is actually leading Charlotte in walks and OPS.  Yeah, both Garcias will come back to earth but Avi is same age as Liriano and Wily is a year younger... Liriano is going to have to get back into action soon and show he can hit to jump ahead of these guys on the depth chart.

    While I think Liriano's 843 OPS in AAA in 2015 was decent, probably equivalent to a 740-750 in the majors given the hitting environment.  Which is not great for corner OF.   His 892 at age 20 was impressive, but it was low A ball.. Liriano won't be the first and certainly not the last guy whose career has peaked in low A.

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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by Guest on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:43 pm

    I hope this doesn't decent into another glass half empty half full arguement, but I was thinking the Garcia brothers would sink below Liriano.


    BTW, if they need a corner OF tommorrow, Ryan Rayburn would get the call
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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:13 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:I hope this doesn't decent into another glass half empty half full arguement, but I was thinking the Garcia brothers would sink below Liriano.
    BTW, if they need a corner OF tommorrow, Ryan Rayburn would get the call

    Yeah, Liriano has better skills than Avi Garcia but Garcia has been given more benefits of the doubt than he deserves (1600 big league PA's) where Liriano's windows of opportunity have been short and not very sweet.  His 100-ish ab trial in SD in 2014,  2016 ST with Brewers, and 2017 ST with the Sox.   Yeah, getting hit in the face wasn't his fault, but 39 K's in 109 ab's in the majors, 13 K's in 28 ab's in 2016 ST, and 23 K's in 48 ab's in 2017 Spring Training were.  Those kind of things shorten a guy's benefit of the doubt.
    So now Avi Garcia can put up a 750 OPS this year, he's still in the hunt for 2018.  Liriano has to be an 850 + guy in AAA or he doesn't move up the depth chart one bit.


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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by Guest on Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:55 pm

    So now Avi Garcia can put up a 750 OPS this year, he's still in the hunt for 2018.  Liriano has to be an 850 + guy in AAA or he doesn't move up the depth chart one bit.



    ******************************************************


    There's an old saying that goes something like


    If your group his being hunted down, you don't have to be faster than than hunter, you just need to be faster than the slowest member in your group.


    that is Liriano's situation with the White Sox.  


    Unfortunately for him, he just might be the slowest this year.  But he is still running with a pack of turtles


    Also, I don't see anybody that is currently in the organization that will bump Avisail Garcia out of a 2018 job.  Now that doesn't mean Garcia won't play his way onto the non tender list this winter...


    Speaking of 2018, I assume no Melkey and if Garcia gets non tendered, that's two open OF spots.  Personally I don't see why Liriano would need an 850OPS to get into that job fight.  Especially since I doubt there would be another OF in the White Sox org within 100 points of 850.


    So while Liriano may have fallen into the hole, I don't see anybody with a shovel to bury him.  However he still has to climb out, which will be quite hard with a hurt hammie and blurry vision.


    PS, this wouldn't even be a discussion if the White Sox would have trade Quintana and Robertson for some hitting prospects this winter
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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:59 pm

    << Also, I don't see anybody that is currently in the organization that will bump Avisail Garcia out of a 2018 job.  Now that doesn't mean Garcia won't play his way onto the non tender list this winter...
    Speaking of 2018, I assume no Melkey and if Garcia gets non tendered, that's two open OF spots.  Personally I don't see why Liriano would need an 850OPS to get into that job fight.  Especially since I doubt there would be another OF in the White Sox org within 100 points of 850.
    So while Liriano may have fallen into the hole, I don't see anybody with a shovel to bury him.  However he still has to climb out, which will be quite hard with a hurt hammie and blurry vision.>>

    Yeah, this whole discussion just shows how bad the OF situation is.  Avi Garcia's hot start means he'll be getting AB's well into May unless he has a serious tailspin.  But who is Plan B if/when he nosedives ?  Not Liriano for now and maybe not a while. 
    Whatever bloom Liriano had on his rose at the starting of ST has worn off already and IMO he's got to do more than come back with a 750-800 OPS in Charlotte to motivate a promotion.

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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by Guest on Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:38 pm

    Roger there is no plan B

    Liriano will most likely get the call if the following scenario develops
    1). Injury to a regular 
    2)  All those wonderful 700 and under OPS from the current cast of misfits confines
    3). Liriano somehow proves to be the tallest midget.  And yes, take will take work
    4). Ryan Rayburn isn't Renteria drinking buddy
    5). Real manager Don Cooper doesn't decide the answer to a depleted outfield is an 8 man bullpen

    So that is how a mediocre Liriano can get lucky

    That said, the 850 you think he needs will be needed if the Sox ever realize there is more to a farm than stockpiling pitchers
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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:48 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Roger there is no plan B

    Liriano will most likely get the call if the following scenario develops
    1). Injury to a regular 
    2)  All those wonderful 700 and under OPS from the current cast of misfits confines
    3). Liriano somehow proves to be the tallest midget.  And yes, take will take work
    4). Ryan Rayburn isn't Renteria drinking buddy
    5). Real manager Don Cooper doesn't decide the answer to a depleted outfield is an 8 man bullpen

    So that is how a mediocre Liriano can get lucky

    That said, the 850 you think he needs will be needed if the Sox ever realize there is more to a farm than stockpiling pitchers

    Sox OF both in majors and minors looks like a wasteland. 

    CF- Fragile and no power Tilson looks like .270/.330/.360 guy even when he manages to stay off the DL. Not much to get excited about.  Obviously Jacob May is not ready for primetime and Adam Engel has had his lunch eaten both in ST and in AAA so far.  Luis Basabe is a possibility but he only hit .258 in low A last year.  Even though that's not bad for a 19 yr old it doesn't inspire any confidence either.

    RF/LF- Melky is a subpar defensive LFer and average at best hitter so no big loss when he departs.  But who takes his job ?  In theory Liriano could since his record since 2011 shows he could be a low-mid 700's corner OFer with some speed and a decent arm.  That's basically another Melky-hitting type with better defense at 1/10 the cost.  Of course before Liriano climbs to even that unlofty perch he has to prove he can stay healthy and hit AAA pitching again. 50-50 bet at best on those things.
    As to the Garcias, I expect them both to be DFA candidates by year's end but like Liriano they may
    survive simply due to lack of competition.
    Wily is off to a surprising hot start in AAA, and even though it's crazy to make much of 30 PA's, the one encouraging thing is 8 walks in all of that.  If somehow he's finally learning not to swing at everything, maybe there is some hope for him.
    Other possibility is converting Nicky Delmonico, currently at 3b, into an OFer.  He's hit decently in ST and the last half in Charlotte last year and off to a good start this year.

    Bottom line to all this:  Hahn should have traded Quintana for a good prospect OFer before the season (Meadows, Tucker, etc) , and Q's shaky start to this year should be a warning that when Q reels off a few good outings in a row, TRADE HIM IMMEDIATELY AND GET A REAL OF PROSPECT !!!!

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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by Guest on Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:40 pm

    Wow, we may actually be on the same page

    Although my opinion of Basabe is much higher

    BTW, he's only in A ball so that's 2019 at best.  Ditto their next two top OF prospects Call and Fischer.  And Same probably applies if they get Cuban phenom Luis Roberts.

    And let's not forget the Karks personal favorite Mackey Adolfo
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    Re: Liriano to the DL

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:30 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Wow, we may actually be on the same page

    Although my opinion of Basabe is much higher

    BTW, he's only in A ball so that's 2019 at best.  Ditto their next two top OF prospects Call and Fischer.  And Same probably applies if they get Cuban phenom Luis Roberts.

    And let's not forget the Karks personal favorite Mackey Adolfo

    As you know, a lot can happen in between A ball and majors (injuries, advanced pitching, body growth or not, etc)  so I can't get too excited about guys until at least they've gotten in AA ball.  But since Sox don't have any REAL OFers at that level or above, we have to pin hopes on the A ball guys for now. 
     Basabe putting up a 772 OPS in low A last year when he was turning 20 isn't bad, particularly for a CFer, plus both his power #'s and  K/BB look pretty decent. But the real standouts at major league level (Upton, Freeman, Heyward, Stanton, etc) were putting up 850 + at that age.  Then again, Michael Brantley was at 741 at that age and he turned into a good ballplayer. So to me Basabe looks like a solid "maybe" rather than a "probable". However, since his upper level Sox OF competitors range from "doubtful" to "snowball's chances in hell", he could move quickly if he performs.

    Alex Call looks like a weaker "maybe", IMO.   800-850 OPS's in rookie ball and low A last year for a guy turning 22 aren't that impressive.  But it does show he isn't an outright bust.  Like Basabe, he's off to a slow start in A+ and I'd say the clock is ticking for him a little louder.  Ditto on Jameson Fischer.  He is even older for his level (23 and in low A this year).  At least he hit mid 300's and walked at a decent clip which he needs to do as a speed guy..  Little concerned about his K rate in the 20's though. Sox need to move him up to high A pretty quickly to see what they've got in him.  I expect he'll stumble some at the higher levels.  Whether he falls into the pit like Sox OF prospects of the past is another matter. At least he hasn't so far.

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