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    Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

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    Nomads44
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    Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by Nomads44 on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:20 pm

    Maybe Quintana and Frazier together would be a package too good for them to refuse and perhaps get the Sox Austin Meadows and Tyler Glasnow, with the addition of Kevin Newman and another lesser prospect.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:46 am

    Nomads44 wrote:Maybe Quintana and Frazier together would be a package too good for them to refuse and perhaps get the Sox Austin Meadows and Tyler Glasnow, with the addition of Kevin Newman and another lesser prospect.


    Don't see Pirates dealing away their top 2 prospects for Q and Frazier. Frazier will be a free agent after this year and he really isn't all that good.  Granted, Glasnow is still a bit of a question mark as his control has been a problem despite his great stuff. But Frazier wouldn't be enough to pry him away.

    Meadows is the real deal and if the Pirates would do a straight up Quintana for Meadows, the Sox should do that in an absolute heartbeat.   Possible the Pirates have refused to give up Meadows which is why that deal hasn't been done... OTOH, if the Pirates have been willing to part with Meadows for Quintana and the Sox have wanted more, I seriously question Rick Hahn's common sense.   Who knows how much longer Quintana will stay healthy and effective. The time to deal Q is when his trade value is at its peak.
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    Re: Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:06 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Nomads44 wrote:Maybe Quintana and Frazier together would be a package too good for them to refuse and perhaps get the Sox Austin Meadows and Tyler Glasnow, with the addition of Kevin Newman and another lesser prospect.


    Don't see Pirates dealing away their top 2 prospects for Q and Frazier. Frazier will be a free agent after this year and he really isn't all that good.  Granted, Glasnow is still a bit of a question mark as his control has been a problem despite his great stuff. But Frazier wouldn't be enough to pry him away.

    Meadows is the real deal and if the Pirates would do a straight up Quintana for Meadows, the Sox should do that in an absolute heartbeat.   Possible the Pirates have refused to give up Meadows which is why that deal hasn't been done... OTOH, if the Pirates have been willing to part with Meadows for Quintana and the Sox have wanted more, I seriously question Rick Hahn's common sense.   Who knows how much longer Quintana will stay healthy and effective. The time to deal Q is when his trade value is at its peak.


    As much as the KARK is in love with Audrey Meadows, I just can't see them settling for one prospect for Quintana.  Sale got 4.  Friggin Eaton got 3.  Both trades had prospects rated higher than Meadows.


    Now I suspect Roger maybe be correct that the Pirates have declared him untouchable.


    But just in case they didn't, I wouldn't question Hahn's common sense for wanting more considering what he got for Sale and Eaton.  But I would question why he would want pitching in return.  the White Sox farm is still woefully thin on hitting.  Assuming he can get Meadows, ask for the kid 3B Hayes and not so young C - Diaz as the throw in, and let the Pirates keep their pitching
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    Re: Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:56 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    As much as the KARK is in love with Audrey Meadows, I just can't see them settling for one prospect for Quintana.  Sale got 4.  Friggin Eaton got 3.  Both trades had prospects rated higher than Meadows.
    Now I suspect Roger maybe be correct that the Pirates have declared him untouchable.
    But just in case they didn't, I wouldn't question Hahn's common sense for wanting more considering what he got for Sale and Eaton.  But I would question why he would want pitching in return.  the White Sox farm is still woefully thin on hitting.  Assuming he can get Meadows, ask for the kid 3B Hayes and not so young C - Diaz as the throw in, and let the Pirates keep their pitching

    Agree that considering what Sale got, Hahn is asking for multiple prospects for Quintana.  Yes, Moncada is more highly rated than Meadows too.  But Meadows isn't that far behind (#5 on Fan Graphs top 100) and Quintana is not as highly regarded as Sale was.  Meaning that if the Sox were to get more than Meadows, the secondary prospect would also be less than Kopech. 
    I also agree it should be a hitter.  Hayes is not a bad idea. He's awfully young but the sleeper I think the Sox should consider is Adam Frazier, who is Pirates current backup MIFer.   Frazier will never be a star but I think he could be a very solid, competent 2bman.   Candidly, Moncada's destination should be 3b as he has the bat for it and it's easier to find a good glove, adequate bat guy for 2b than it is to find the bigger bat 3bman.  Sox have had poor luck finding a good 3bman for years and Frazier at best was just a semi-adequate answer.
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    Re: Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:31 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    As much as the KARK is in love with Audrey Meadows, I just can't see them settling for one prospect for Quintana.  Sale got 4.  Friggin Eaton got 3.  Both trades had prospects rated higher than Meadows.
    Now I suspect Roger maybe be correct that the Pirates have declared him untouchable.
    But just in case they didn't, I wouldn't question Hahn's common sense for wanting more considering what he got for Sale and Eaton.  But I would question why he would want pitching in return.  the White Sox farm is still woefully thin on hitting.  Assuming he can get Meadows, ask for the kid 3B Hayes and not so young C - Diaz as the throw in, and let the Pirates keep their pitching

    Agree that considering what Sale got, Hahn is asking for multiple prospects for Quintana.  Yes, Moncada is more highly rated than Meadows too.  But Meadows isn't that far behind (#5 on Fan Graphs top 100) and Quintana is not as highly regarded as Sale was.  Meaning that if the Sox were to get more than Meadows, the secondary prospect would also be less than Kopech. 
    I also agree it should be a hitter.  Hayes is not a bad idea. He's awfully young but the sleeper I think the Sox should consider is Adam Frazier, who is Pirates current backup MIFer.   Frazier will never be a star but I think he could be a very solid, competent 2bman.   Candidly, Moncada's destination should be 3b as he has the bat for it and it's easier to find a good glove, adequate bat guy for 2b than it is to find the bigger bat 3bman.  Sox have had poor luck finding a good 3bman for years and Frazier at best was just a semi-adequate answer.


    NICE TO SEE US AGREEING ON SOMETHING.


    However, I feel compelled to shoot down your Frazier idea.  If the goal is 2020, then you need to gamble on younger guys with higher ceilings.  Hayes is not only a top Pirate prospect, but listed in the top 10 3B propsects.  Now is not the time to be trading with guys who will never be stars.


    As for Moncada, I would say play him where he is best suited.  Let the other positions take care of themselves.  Since Moncada will start the year in AAA, lets see how good he is defensively at 2B.  If he shows he can be a plus defender, keep him at 2B.  If he's just average or below average, then move him.  BTW, this is why I targeted Hayes and that Candelario kid from the Cubs.  Austin Riley in the Braves org should also be a target if Quintana ends up going there.  Anyway, Moncada should play where he looks most comfortable with the glove.  Be it 2B, 3B or even LF.


    Now to run off on a tangent, some feel Zach Collins may be better suited for 1B.  Bill James once suggested smart organizations do not stretch their defense.  Meaning you don't play guys at the toughest position they could get by at.  Look at Adam Eaton.  You could live with him in CF, but what a heck of an RF.  I don't want to just live with Moncada at 2B.  If he can play it like Sandberg, leave him there.  If the best thing for his bat to develop is LF, then move him there.  Likewise, I don't want to live with Collins at catcher.  He needs to either demonstrate defensive value or move.
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    Re: Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:00 pm

    However, I feel compelled to shoot down your Frazier idea.  If the goal is 2020, then you need to gamble on younger guys with higher ceilings.  Hayes is not only a top Pirate prospect, but listed in the top 10 3B propsects.  Now is not the time to be trading with guys who will never be stars.>>
    Not necessarily favoring Adam Frazier over Hayes.  May be that the Pirates are more willing to part with Adam Frazier, if in fact Quintana can pry lose someone besides Meadows. 

    As much as I agree the Sox need to find as many future stars as possible, there are only so many of them to go around.  Only 49 guys had 4.5 + WAR last year (or an average of 1.6 per team).   Sox actually had three such guys (Sale, Eaton, Quintana). 

    What killed the Sox was failing to get at least average production out of 6 offensive spots last year (1b, 2b, C, CF, LF, DH), 3 bullpen spots and one SP slot.   Even more damaging is that CF was
    negative -2 WAR and one spot the rotation was -2.4 WAR, thanks to Shields and others.


    In addition to the hunt for prospects who can produce 4+ WAR guys, Sox should also try to stockpile some younger guys who can deliver average or at least semi-decent production.   Anderson is the only minor leaguer in years who has bailed out a failing offensive spot. Meanwhile, the Sox have had to import all sorts of clowns (LaRoche, Cabrera, Lawrie, Rollins, Jackson, Frazier, etc, etc.) sometimes at big $$$ to try to get MERE DECENCY that they've lacked in their system.



    Even pitching has lacked depth beyond the Sale/Quintana/Rodon trio.  Which has forced the Sox to go to the outside for guys like Latos and Shields because the Johnson, Turners, Becks, etc in AAA weren't even capable of handling the undemanding 5th starter spot.  Ditto on some bullpen arms.


    Having a stockpile of DECENT 24-27 year olds is going to be nearly as valuable as having the handful of future stars, IMO.
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    Re: Kang denied Visa - Frazier???

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:46 pm

    Having a stockpile of DECENT 24-27 year olds is going to be nearly as valuable as having the handful of future stars, IMO.


    ********************************************


    If the goal is 2020 and beyond, lets focus on high end hitting prospects and the younger the better.


    Plus you can't predict where these kids will end up.  Look at the Luis Basabe kid they got from Boston.  All the tools in the world.  Will he be the next Ken Griffey Jr, or will he only be as good as senior.  Or will he the next Daryl Boston or De Aza.


    To use a 401K metaphor, the White Sox are adults in their 20's.  They need to be in the more agressive funds.  Trying to pin point the decent 26 year old now is like the looking at bond funds

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