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    FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:09 am

    BTW, Adam Engel had a 750OPS last year compared to 692 for Garcia

    So once again you are completely off base with your claim that these guys are no better than in the minors than what Garcia is in the majors.

    Engel not only has a higher OPS, he is far better defensively, and is one of the fastest men in all of baseball.

    Delmonico had an OPS of 837 in 2016!!!!!  So even with your imaginery 110 point hair cut, he beats Garcia by 35 points

    the only one you have a point on is jacab May who had a 2016 OPS of 662

    So for the 42nd time, what you claim fails to stand up when vetted.

    Garica needs to be cut.  My guess he's another Viciedo, not another Jose Guillen
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:24 am

    As for Jose Guillen, counting his age 27 breakout year with a 928 OPS, he was a good hitter (750OPS or greater) in 4 of 5 years.


    So even if Garcia, pulls a miracle and turns into Jose Guillen this year, then 3 of the 4 good years will be during the meaningless rebuilding years of 2017-2019.  meaning the White Sox will only get one good year out of him.  Mostly likely after signing him to a multi-year big dollar contract.


    Seems like a waste to me.


    *************


    PS, Guillen didn't get good until 27.  Garcia is only 26.  So that means Garcia needs to stay next year as well in order to test your crazy Jose Guillen theory.  And you claimed Wieters would be a waste of money?!?!?!?!  Garcia gets 3.4mil this year and next year it would be 5-6mil.  Almost $10mil for an imaginery 15% chance?!?!?!?


    and even if he pulls off a miracle, he's a free agent after the 2019 season.  Given your Jose Guillen comparison, there is not much gas left in the tank, so he'd have to be traded as a 3 month rental.  something you claim has minimal trade value


    Once again, your analysis fails the vetting process.


    Common sense demands Garcia get cut now
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    rmapasad
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:28 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:BTW, Adam Engel had a 750OPS last year compared to 692 for Garcia
    So once again you are completely off base with your claim that these guys are no better than in the minors than what Garcia is in the majors.
    Engel not only has a higher OPS, he is far better defensively, and is one of the fastest men in all of baseball.
    Delmonico had an OPS of 837 in 2016!!!!!  So even with your imaginery 110 point hair cut, he beats Garcia by 35 points
    the only one you have a point on is jacab May who had a 2016 OPS of 662
    So for the 42nd time, what you claim fails to stand up when vetted.
    Garica needs to be cut.  My guess he's another Viciedo, not another Jose Guillen


    Engel had a 750 OPS in AA v-not that impressive for a 24 year old. When promoted to AAA his OPS last year was 667.   He also struck out 31% of the time in AAA  bad for a guy with no power.  Engel clearly is a much better OFer than Garcia (who isn't ?) but hitting-wise he needs a lot of work
    Here is a scouting report on him.

    <<  Engel is a baseball rat with tremendous speed and leaping ability that make him a potential plus defender in center field. He has experience in left field going back to college and is already plus there. His arm strength limits him to those two positions, ideally, but he’s obviously fast enough to play rangy, plus defense in right independent of arm strength.
    Offensively, Engel’s linear swing produces lots of ground balls and very little in-game power. While he has solid-average bat speed, Engel’s swing can get long, causing tardiness. Scouts are skeptical about his bat control and think poor feel for the barrel leads to some of the ground balls and pop ups Engel frequently produces.  It’s unlikely that Engel’s slash-and-run tendencies will continue to play in the big leagues, where pitchers and defenses are better equipped to deal with them. He projects as a fourth or fifth outfielder and pinch-runner.>>

    Sox are woefully short of good OF/DH types right now, so I would not discard ANY of them right now. 
    If Opening Day were today I'd give the guys who've shown modest survival skills in AAA and majors (Tilson, Garcia, Liriano, Davidson) the first shot at major league AB's and the rest a chance to show what they can do in AAA.  If Cabrera gets traded midseason, Engel or Delmonico could get that job if they've done well in AAA.

    Last but not least, if Engel or anyone else shows tremendous progress in Spring Training, Garcia hasn't and it takes cutting Garcia to give these other guys major league AB's, so be it.  But that is not where we are today and once more LET"S LET THESE GUYS PLAY IT OUT AND GO FROM THERE.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:55 pm

    If Opening Day were today I'd give the guys who've shown modest survival skills in AAA and majors (Tilson, Garcia, Liriano, Davidson) the first shot at major league AB's and the rest a chance to show what they can do in AAA.  If Cabrera gets traded midseason, Engel or Delmonico could get that job if they've done well in AAA.


    *************************


    If the season started today, assuming a healthy Tilson


    RF - Liriano/Delmonico platoon
    CF - Tilson/Engel platoon
    LF - Cabrera
    3B - Frazier
    SS - Anderson
    2B - Lawrie
    1B - Abreau
    C  - Navarz/Soto platton
    DH - Davidson/Asche platoon
    UIF - Saladino


    Let somebody else indulge the your Jose Garcia fantasy


    He clearly has no place on the 25 man roster, no should he
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    rmapasad
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:01 pm

    < RF - Liriano/Delmonico platoon
    CF - Tilson/Engel platoon
    LF - Cabrera
    3B - Frazier
    SS - Anderson
    2B - Lawrie
    1B - Abreau
    C  - Navarz/Soto platton
    DH - Davidson/Asche platoon
    UIF - Saladino
    Let somebody else indulge the your Jose Garcia fantasy >


    Platooning is a win-now strategy. It makes no sense to platoon Liriano and Tilson who need maximum AB's, maximum time in the field, and max experience in dealing with same-handed pitching.  These guys are trying to see whether they can become fulltime regulars. 
    Engel and Delmonico should also be getting maximum AB's and field time in AAA. Davidson could use more AAA time working on 3b assuming he's not out of options.
    Fan Graphs has all of their projections as marginal. Garcia at 719, Delmonico 705, Asche 701, Liriano 665, Tilson 665, Hayes 645,
    Davidson 645, Engel 603..
    What this says to me is very simple.  Nobody has a job locked down, and nobody is an obvious cut particularly the guy with the highest projection Very Happy Very Happy  .Guys who have options left can be sent down to AAA and the others can duke it out in Spring Training. 
    It may come down to a choice of Garcia or Asche for the Sox to cut. Both are lousy defenders and hitters (Garcia 695 career - Asche 684). Asche is LHed but he's also a year older than Garcia.   Let's see who comes out on top when all the smoke clears.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:07 pm

    rmapasad wrote:< RF - Liriano/Delmonico platoon
    CF - Tilson/Engel platoon
    LF - Cabrera
    3B - Frazier
    SS - Anderson
    2B - Lawrie
    1B - Abreau
    C  - Navarz/Soto platton
    DH - Davidson/Asche platoon
    UIF - Saladino
    Let somebody else indulge the your Jose Garcia fantasy >


    Platooning is a win-now strategy.

    NO IT ISN'T

     It makes no sense to platoon Liriano and Tilson

    YES IT DOES

    who need maximum AB's, maximum time in the field, and max experience in dealing with same-handed pitching.  These guys are trying to see whether they can become fulltime regulars.

    YET YOU'D RATHER GIVE THAT TIME TO AVISAIL GARCIA
     

    Engel and Delmonico should also be getting maximum AB's and field time in AAA.

    AND WHAT, LEAVE THE BENCH TO GUYS IN THEIR 30'S LIKE BOURJOS AND EVERTH CABRERA?!?!?  HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN THEY ARE REBUILDING?!?!?!

    Davidson could use more AAA time working on 3b assuming he's not out of options.

    DAVIDSON IS A QUAD A DH.  NOT ONE OF YOUR JOSE GUILLEN FANTASIES

    Fan Graphs has all of their projections as marginal. Garcia at 719, Delmonico 705, Asche 701, Liriano 665, Tilson 665, Hayes 645,
    Davidson 645, Engel 603..

    WOW, HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 719 AND 701.  PLUS WE ALL KNOW HOW FAN GRAPHS IS NEVER WRONG

    What this says to me is very simple.  Nobody has a job locked down, and nobody is an obvious cut particularly the guy with the highest projection Very Happy Very Happy  .

    YOU REALLY CAN'T ANALYZE CAN YOU.  THE OBVIOUS MESSAGE IS THAT THEY ALL SUCK, SO LETS MINIMIZE THE SUCKAGE.  PLATOONING NOT ONLY DOES THAT BUT GIVES YOU A LOOK AT ALL THESE GUYS AT ONCE, JUST IN CASE THERE IS A MIRACLE LURKING.  YOU DO REALIZE THAT STARTING OF THE YEAR IN A PLATOON DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT THE ENTIRE YEAR DONTCHA?!?!?!?

    Guys who have options left can be sent down to AAA and the others can duke it out in Spring Training. 

    LMAO!!!!!  YOUR DUKE OUT WILL RESEMBLE THE SOUTH PARK CRIPPLE FIGHT.  COCO CRISP PROBABLY MAKES MORE SENSE THAN EVERY PLAYER LISTED IN THIS THREAD

    It may come down to a choice of Garcia or Asche for the Sox to cut. Both are lousy defenders and hitters (Garcia 695 career - Asche 684). Asche is LHed but he's also a year older than Garcia.   Let's see who comes out on top when all the smoke clears.


    YOUR HILLARIOUS


    FOR 3 WEEKS YOU TELL ME TO HELL WITH WIETERS, 2017 DOESN'T MATTER


    NOW YOUR TELLING ME ITS VITAL THEY CHOOSE CORRECTLY BETWEEN ASCHE AND GARCIA WHILE PROTECTING THE SERVICE TIME OF DELMONICO AND ENGEL.


    WHEN THE SMOKE CLEARS IN 2020, I DOUBT ANY OF THESE CLOWNS ARE AROUND, WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF RYMER LIRIANO.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:56 am


    YOU REALLY CAN'T ANALYZE CAN YOU.  THE OBVIOUS MESSAGE IS THAT THEY ALL SUCK, SO LETS MINIMIZE THE SUCKAGE.  PLATOONING NOT ONLY DOES THAT BUT GIVES YOU A LOOK AT ALL THESE GUYS AT ONCE, JUST IN CASE THERE IS A MIRACLE LURKING.  YOU DO REALIZE THAT STARTING OF THE YEAR IN A PLATOON DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT THE ENTIRE YEAR DONTCHA?!?!?!?


    YOUR HILLARIOUSFOR 3 WEEKS YOU TELL ME TO HELL WITH WIETERS, 2017 DOESN'T MATTER
    NOW YOUR TELLING ME ITS VITAL THEY CHOOSE CORRECTLY BETWEEN ASCHE AND GARCIA WHILE PROTECTING THE SERVICE TIME OF DELMONICO AND ENGEL.
    WHEN THE SMOKE CLEARS IN 2020, I DOUBT ANY OF THESE CLOWNS ARE AROUND, WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF RYMER LIRIANO.>


    "Minimizing the suckage" has just confirmed my point about platooning- it is a strategy to maximize wins.  Rebuilders need to see whether Tilson and Liriano can handle 150 games in the field and hit against both RHers and LHers.  You think Liriano will be the sole survivor of this whole group yet suggest he should be platooned and just face LHers which is only about 30% of all ab's.

    Engel, Delmonico and Davidson (if he still has options left) can go back to AAA and prove they can hit those pitchers and work on their defense. If Davidson is out of options he could be carried as a utility guy who can rotate between 3b,1b and DH and maybe get 50% of all starts. 




    For Asche and Garcia, the clock strikes midnight in 2017. They've boxed themselves into competing for the fulltime DH role because neither one plays defense worth a damn. One of them will have to go unless Liriano gets hurt again or really screws the pooch in ST and Sox have to put one of them in RF for the time being.
    On paper, Garcia has the edge.  Asche is a year older and even though he's LHed, his career 688 v. RHers is barely better than Garcia's 678 v. RHers and Garcia is 749 v LHers where Asche is 667.
    Normally ST isn't all that meaningful. But for guys competing for jobs or to salvage their careers it's everything.  Let's see what happens.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:56 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    YOU REALLY CAN'T ANALYZE CAN YOU.  THE OBVIOUS MESSAGE IS THAT THEY ALL SUCK, SO LETS MINIMIZE THE SUCKAGE.  PLATOONING NOT ONLY DOES THAT BUT GIVES YOU A LOOK AT ALL THESE GUYS AT ONCE, JUST IN CASE THERE IS A MIRACLE LURKING.  YOU DO REALIZE THAT STARTING OF THE YEAR IN A PLATOON DOESN'T MEAN YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT THE ENTIRE YEAR DONTCHA?!?!?!?


    YOUR HILLARIOUSFOR 3 WEEKS YOU TELL ME TO HELL WITH WIETERS, 2017 DOESN'T MATTER
    NOW YOUR TELLING ME ITS VITAL THEY CHOOSE CORRECTLY BETWEEN ASCHE AND GARCIA WHILE PROTECTING THE SERVICE TIME OF DELMONICO AND ENGEL.
    WHEN THE SMOKE CLEARS IN 2020, I DOUBT ANY OF THESE CLOWNS ARE AROUND, WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF RYMER LIRIANO.>


    "Minimizing the suckage" has just confirmed my point about platooning- it is a strategy to maximize wins.

    SO WHAT?!?!?!?  YOU SEEM TO SUFFER FROM THIS DELUSION THAT REBUILDING MEANS MAXIMIZING LOSSES.  IT DOESN'T.  REBUILDING MEANS MAXIMIZING FUTURE VALUE.  TO DO SO, OFTEN TIMES PRESENT VALUE HAS TO BE SACRIFICED.  AND AGAIN, YOU SEEM TO SUFFER FROM THE DELUSION THAT REBUILDING MEANS MINIMIZING PRESENT VALUE.  YOU ALSO SEEM TO FAIL TO COMPREHEND THAT MOVES CAN BE VALUE NEUTRAL.

    Rebuilders need to see whether Tilson and Liriano can handle 150 games in the field and hit against both RHers and LHers.  You think Liriano will be the sole survivor of this whole group yet suggest he should be platooned and just face LHers which is only about 30% of all ab's.

    WELL YOU ARE THE ONE DEMANDING OPEN AUDITIONS.  NOTHING SAYS OPEN AUDITION LIKE A PLATOON AT 4 DIFFERENT POSITIONS.  AS FOR LIMITING TILSON AND LIRIANO, AGAIN YOU FAIL TO SEE ANY ALTERNATIVE OTHER THAN THE FIRST ONE YOU THINK OF.  THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL IS LITTERED WITH PLAYERS THAT WIN JOBS OUT OF THE SPRING ONLY TO LOSE THE THEM BY ALL STAR BREAK.  IF LIRIANO STARTS KILLING LEFTIES WHILE HIS COUNTER PART REMAINS SOUTH OF 700OPS, NOTHING STOPS RENTERIA FROM WRITING LIRIANO'S NAME MORE OFTEN.

    AND IF BOTH ARE KICKING ASS, MAYBE IF FORCES A MELKEY TRADE TO OPEN UP ROOM FOR BOTH.
     

    Engel, Delmonico and Davidson (if he still has options left) can go back to AAA and prove they can hit those pitchers and work on their defense. If Davidson is out of options he could be carried as a utility guy who can rotate between 3b,1b and DH and maybe get 50% of all starts. 

    LMAO!!!!!  IF ANYBODY NEEDS TO WORK ON DEFENSE IT YOUR HERO AVISAIL


    For Asche and Garcia, the clock strikes midnight in 2017.

    03/14/2017 FOR GARCIA AS FAR AS THE KARK IS CONCERNED

    They've boxed themselves
    into competing for the fulltime DH role because neither one plays defense worth a damn.

    ALL THE PAPERS HAVE GARCIA IN RF.  MAYBE ITS YOU WHO CAN'T THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

    One of them will have to go unless Liriano gets hurt again or really screws the pooch in ST and Sox have to put one of them in RF for the time being.
    On paper, Garcia has the edge.

    ON TOILET PAPER

    Asche is a year older and even though he's LHed, his career 688 v. RHers is barely better than Garcia's 678 v. RHers and Garcia is 749 v LHers where Asche is 667.
    Normally ST isn't all that meaningful. But for guys competing for jobs or to salvage their careers it's everything.  Let's see what happens.

    IN 2016, ASCHE HAD AN UNCHARACTERISTIC REVERSE SPLIT, OPS'ing ONLY 621.  PRIOR TO THAT ITS ABOUT 710, CLEARLY SUPERIOR TO GARCIA.

    SO THESE TWO PLATOONING AT DH WOULD GIVE THE SOX ROUGHLY AN AVERAGE OPS AT THE SPOT.

    BTW, I BELIEVE RENTERIA IS HINTING AT A DH BY COMMITTEE.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:46 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    SO WHAT?!?!?!?  YOU SEEM TO SUFFER FROM THIS DELUSION THAT REBUILDING MEANS MAXIMIZING LOSSES.  IT DOESN'T.  REBUILDING MEANS MAXIMIZING FUTURE VALUE.  TO DO SO, OFTEN TIMES PRESENT VALUE HAS TO BE SACRIFICED.  AND AGAIN, YOU SEEM TO SUFFER FROM THE DELUSION THAT REBUILDING MEANS MINIMIZING PRESENT VALUE.  YOU ALSO SEEM TO FAIL TO COMPREHEND THAT MOVES CAN BE VALUE NEUTRAL.
    WELL YOU ARE THE ONE DEMANDING OPEN AUDITIONS.  NOTHING SAYS OPEN AUDITION LIKE A PLATOON AT 4 DIFFERENT POSITIONS.  AS FOR LIMITING TILSON AND LIRIANO, AGAIN YOU FAIL TO SEE ANY ALTERNATIVE OTHER THAN THE FIRST ONE YOU THINK OF.  THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL IS LITTERED WITH PLAYERS THAT WIN JOBS OUT OF THE SPRING ONLY TO LOSE THE THEM BY ALL STAR BREAK.  IF LIRIANO STARTS KILLING LEFTIES WHILE HIS COUNTER PART REMAINS SOUTH OF 700OPS, NOTHING STOPS RENTERIA FROM WRITING LIRIANO'S NAME MORE OFTEN.
    AND IF BOTH ARE KICKING ASS, MAYBE IF FORCES A MELKEY TRADE TO OPEN UP ROOM FOR BOTH.
     

    Platoons, which maximize PRODUCTION, make sense for teams shooting for the playoffs.  Rebuilders need to maximize PLAYING OPPORTUNITIES for developing players. Giving a guy 550-600 PA's instead of the 200-400 he'd get in a platoon allows him to: 1- get into an everyday rythym  2- handle both RH and LH pitchers  3- maximum exposure in the field to develops his defensive skills  4- builds up his endurance over a 162 game season.   You don't need 24-27 year olds resting 3-4 days a week.  Plus, for Liriano and Tilson who  hit same-handed pitchers better in AAA, and Engel who hit RH/LH same, using platooning as training wheels so they succeed first on easier pitching for them isn't even going to work.  They're already used to riding the regular bike everyday in the minors.  Platooning would be a backward step.
    Finally 4 platoons plus a utitlity IFer means 14 offensive players and in this age of heavy bullpen use 12-13 man pitching staffs are the norm.  You can rail on about how 100-120 IP relievers and 250-300 IP starters should return, but they'll come back about the same time 8 track players do.



    ALL THE PAPERS HAVE GARCIA IN RF.  MAYBE ITS YOU WHO CAN'T THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX
    Of course the Sox are going to have one more fling with him in RF now that Eaton is gone...But Avi has to hit or he becomes extinct.   If Liriano gets hurt or Garcia beats him out in spring training, Garcia has to hit well above an avg RFer's 736 OPS to compensate for his bad defense.  And he'd have to put up a 795 just to be an average DH.   His 695 career and 719 projected this yr says he probably won't make the magic career turnaround to 800 + mark.  But nothing suggests that Davidson, Ashce, or Liriano have any better odds of their needed turnarounds than Garcia.   So Sox will probably give them all whatever opportunities are available and try to hang onto these guys as long as possible until they've proven once and for all they won't be useful major leaguers.


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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:24 pm

    Again you contradict yourself

    First we need open auditions

    Then we need to play them everyday

    Then it's not even clear if they are capable of playing everyday

    You claim all these guys are long shots

    But then you demand they get treated like top prospects

    You claim that Garcia, the very definition of a crappy ballplayer, is the best of this lot.  Then you claim it's silly to treat the lot with any steps

    Then theirs your intellectual fallacy the platooning is a win now strategy.

    Then you claim mob mentality is justification for 12-13 pitchers

    And people wonder why I claim you just get off on deliberately disagreeing with me

    Well just look at the lengths you go to to defend Abigail freakin garcia
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by alohafri on Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:50 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Again you contradict yourself

    First we need open auditions

    Then we need to play them everyday

    Then it's not even clear if they are capable of playing everyday

    You claim all these guys are long shots

    But then you demand they get treated like top prospects

    You claim that Garcia, the very definition of a crappy ballplayer, is the best of this lot.  Then you claim it's silly to treat the lot with any steps

    Then theirs your intellectual fallacy the platooning is a win now strategy.

    Then you claim mob mentality is justification for 12-13 pitchers

    And people wonder why I claim you just get off on deliberately disagreeing with me

    Well just look at the lengths you go to to defend Abigail freakin garcia

    The top prospects are not ready for prime time.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:45 am

    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Again you contradict yourself

    First we need open auditions

    Then we need to play them everyday

    Then it's not even clear if they are capable of playing everyday

    You claim all these guys are long shots

    But then you demand they get treated like top prospects

    You claim that Garcia, the very definition of a crappy ballplayer, is the best of this lot.  Then you claim it's silly to treat the lot with any steps

    Then theirs your intellectual fallacy the platooning is a win now strategy.

    Then you claim mob mentality is justification for 12-13 pitchers

    And people wonder why I claim you just get off on deliberately disagreeing with me

    Well just look at the lengths you go to to defend Abigail freakin garcia

    The top prospects are not ready for prime time.


    AND........


    Try following the discussion!!!!


    We all know the tops aren't ready.  If Zach Collins were ready, the whole Wieters conversation never happens.  If Basabe were ready, then we don't need to platoon Asche/Liriano in RF.  If Fischer were ready, we don't need to platoon Delmonico/Davidson at DH.  And if they could trade Quintana for Meadows or some other MLB ready CF, we don't need to platoon Tilson/Engel in CF.


    Unfortunately the tops aren't ready


    The real issue is why in the blue hell are the White Sox pissing away $3.4mil in a last ditch pathetic effort to show they actually got something of value for Jake Peavy.


    I would think a season ticket holder would be sick of seeing Avisail Garcia in a White Sox uniform.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:48 am

    BTW, here is another contradiction in Roger's position.


    He claims platooning is a WIN NOW strategy.  This implies (or is it infers?) that refusing to platoon when the situation calls for it is a losing strategy.  Therefore, Roger's condemnation of the White Sox not platooning in 2017 is actually the advocating for using existing personnel in an inefficient manner.


    Where the KARK comes from, organizations improve by becoming more efficient not less.


    But than, the KARK has always been in private idustry
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:38 am

    You claim all these guys are long shots
    But then you demand they get treated like top prospects
    You claim that Garcia, the very definition of a crappy ballplayer, is the best of this lot.  Then you claim it's silly to treat the lot with any steps
    Then theirs your intellectual fallacy the platooning is a win now strategy.
    Then you claim mob mentality is justification for 12-13 pitchers
    And people wonder why I claim you just get off on deliberately disagreeing with me
    Well just look at the lengths you go to to defend Abigail freakin garcia>..
    Sox are trying to get a competitive team for 2019-2020 and right now Moncada, Anderson and Collins seem like best hopes.  Between Liriano, Tilson, Garcia, Engel, May, Delmonico, Davidson, etc. Sox ideally would have at least one or two of these step up and show they're starter worthy by 2019.  Otherwise they have to fill 6 offensive openings with expensive free agents and risk getting more 30+ year Cabrera/LaRoche types. 

    They need FULLTIME regulars not 4th OFer/DH platoon types (which are always easy to find). 

    At this point we can speculate forever who might make it and who won't.  ALL these guys have checkered careers. Only difference is you've seen Garcia sucking and not the others. Garcia is FA eligible in either 2020 or 2021.  He's got to be near 800 to be worth re-upping in 2018.  Plain and simple. Let him take his shot at it. NOBODY looks obviously better at this point, Sox have a shortage of offense, they've gone this far with the guy so he might as well be part of the crowd of suspects who are getting their final shot at redeeming their careers.
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:37 am

    Sox are trying to get a competitive team for 2019-2020 and right now Moncada, Anderson and Collins seem like best hopes.  Between Liriano, Tilson, Garcia, Engel, May, Delmonico, Davidson, etc. Sox ideally would have at least one or two of these step up and show they're starter worthy by 2019.  Otherwise they have to fill 6 offensive openings with expensive free agents and risk getting more 30+ year Cabrera/LaRoche types.  


    **********************************


    DISAGREE WITH ABOUT 2/3 OF THIS.

    THE MONCADA, ANDERSON & COLLINS IS THE 1/3 I AGREE WITH.  HOPEFULLY COLLINS IS THE CATCHER AND NOT THE 1B OR LF OF THE FUTURE.  BUT I'LL SAVE THAT FOR ANOTHER TIME.

    YOU CLAIM THE SOX DON'T NEED A BUNCH OF 4TH OF TYPES.  NEWSFLASH.  WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTIONS OF LIRIANO AND TILSON, THAT IS MOST LIKELY THE UPPER BOUND OF THE REST OF THIS LOT.  WHAT YOU NEED TO REALIZE IS A) YOU CAN'T TURN A BIG MAC INTO FILET MIGNON AND B) THIS GROUP OF QUAD A CRAP IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION THE WHITE SOX HAVE.

    IN OTHER WORDS, ITS QUITE LIKELY ALL MY PLATOONS PLUS GARCIA COULD BE OUT OF BASEBALL BY 2019 AND THE WHITE SOX CAN STILL ACHIEVE GREATNESS IN 2020



    YOU MENTION 6 OPEN POSITIONS.

    WELL THE KARK IS HIGH ON BASABE AND FISHER IN THE OF.  IF JOSE QUINTANA TURNS INTO AUDREY MEADOWS OR MOTHER TUCKER, 3 OF 6 ARE FILLED.

    THAT LEAVES 1B, 3B, AND DH.  AND THE DH IS A NATURAL FOR AN EXPENSIVE FREE AGENT, SO ALL THE WHITE SOX REALLY NEED IS THE IF CORNERS.

    NOW IT APPEARS THAT CORY ZANGARI IS NO LONGER IN THE WHITE SOX TOP 30, SO THE WHITE SOX NEED TO FIND THEIR TONY RIZZO.  WHICH IS WHY THE KARK HAS ALWAYS HAD A JOEY GALLO FETISH.

    SO BETWEEN QUINTANA, ROBERTSON, JONES, FRAZIER, ABREU, AND CABRERA, THE WHITE SOX NEED TO CONJURE UP THEY NEXT KEN GRIFFEY JR AND JIM THOME.  MAYBE THEY'LL GET UNLUCKY AND DRAFT ONE THIS SUMMER

    BOTTOM LINE, CUT GARCIA, SAVE $2MIL.  PLATOON THE QUAD A'ers AND SEE WHO BREAKS AWAY FROM THE PACK.  GET THE BLUEST BLUE CHIP OUTFIELDER YOU CAN FOR QUINTANA.




    PS, YOUR REFIRDERATOR IS EMPTY.  DON'T OPEN THE DOOR AGAIN UNTIL AFTER YOU COME BACK FORM THE GROCERY STORE
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    alohafri
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by alohafri on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:45 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    I would think a season ticket holder would be sick of seeing Avisail Garcia in a White Sox uniform.

    You are obsessed with Avisail Garcia. Maybe you two need to get a room at the same time you get a room with Todd. 
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:55 am

    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    I would think a season ticket holder would be sick of seeing Avisail Garcia in a White Sox uniform.

    You are obsessed with Avisail Garcia. Maybe you two need to get a room at the same time you get a room with Todd. 


    WHO CAN ARGUE WITH SUCH THOUGHTFUL ANALYSIS

    WITH INSIGHT LIKE THIS, YOU SHOULD BE WORKING FOR FANGRAPHS OR BASEBALL PROSPECTUS
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    rmapasad
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:10 pm

    He claims platooning is a WIN NOW strategy.  This implies (or is it infers?) that refusing to platoon when the situation calls for it is a losing strategy. Therefore, Roger's condemnation of the White Sox not platooning in 2017 is actually the advocating for using existing personnel in an inefficient manner.  Where the KARK comes from, organizations improve by becoming more efficient not less.  But than, the KARK has always been in private idustry  >>
    2017 is NOT about finding the most efficient use of resources to produce the best team results.  It's about finding out who is suitable for the future and who isn't and then developing the ones that are.  Platooning is the enemy of both finding out and developing.  Platooning deprives players a chance to hit both RH and Lhers and gain the stamina and mental toughness they need to handle fulltime duties over a long season.
     Those that haven't shown they are ready to do that in majors yet (Engel, Delmonico, May, etc) need to play everyday in AAA and the Tilsons, Lirianos need to be tested and developed with fulltime major league play.
    Platooning is for veterans who aren't good fulltimers and can only hit RH or LH decently.  Such guys are easy to find, and Sox don't need to cultivate this type player. 
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    rmapasad
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:20 pm

    WHAT YOU NEED TO REALIZE IS A) YOU CAN'T TURN A BIG MAC INTO FILET MIGNON AND B) THIS GROUP OF QUAD A CRAP IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION THE WHITE SOX HAVE.>>
    I don't expect any of them to become filet mignon.  But a decent average NY steak will do.  If Tilson can put up 730 OPS + good defense that makes him a C+/B- guy for CF and still under cost control.  Give him the chance to be that, instead of relegating him to a platoon which doesn't even make sense since he put up good #'s v. LHers last year in AAA.
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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:59 pm

    rmapasad wrote:WHAT YOU NEED TO REALIZE IS A) YOU CAN'T TURN A BIG MAC INTO FILET MIGNON AND B) THIS GROUP OF QUAD A CRAP IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION THE WHITE SOX HAVE.>>
    I don't expect any of them to become filet mignon.  But a decent average NY steak will do.  If Tilson can put up 730 OPS + good defense that makes him a C+/B- guy for CF and still under cost control.  Give him the chance to be that, instead of relegating him to a platoon which doesn't even make sense since he put up good #'s v. LHers last year in AAA.


    AGAIN YOU ACT LIKE LIKE SUCH A PLATOON WOULD BE PERMANENT.


    MAYBE A PLATOON WOULD HELP HIS ACHE-Y FEET FROM HURTING TOO MUCH


    PLUS HOW MANY PEOPLE PLAY ALL 162 GAMES?!?!?!?!?


    UNDER THE KARK'S PLAN, I'M SURE A GUY LIKE TILSON WOULD HAVE NO TROUBLE PLAYING IN 100-135 GAMES WITH 350-500AB.


    THAT'S PLENTY OF PLAYING TIME.  PLUS I FAIL TO SEE HOW DENYING HIM 600AB RETARDS HIS DEVELOPMENT.


    AGAIN, YOU ARE THE ONE THAT CALLED FOR OPEN AUDITIONS.  SO WHY ARE YOU SUGGESTING NOW THAT THE LINE BE CUT IN HALF?!?!?!?


    ANOTHER THING YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING IS THAT THE WHITE SOX SHOULD BE SEEKING PLAYERS BETTER THAN THE LIKES OF WHAT TILSON PROJECTS TO BE.  YOU SAID IT YOURSELF THAT HE'S A C+.


    THE PURPOSE OF REBUILDING IS TO FIND THE GRADE A'S THAT CAN CARRY YOUR TEAM (MOCADA, GIOLITO).  NOT STOCK PILE C+ TALENT THAT IS ALWAYS AVAILABLE.
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    rmapasad
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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:09 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    NDER THE KARK'S PLAN, I'M SURE A GUY LIKE TILSON WOULD HAVE NO TROUBLE PLAYING IN 100-135 GAMES WITH 350-500AB.HAT'S PLENTY OF PLAYING TIME.  PLUS I FAIL TO SEE HOW DENYING HIM 600AB RETARDS HIS DEVELOPMENT.
    AGAIN, YOU ARE THE ONE THAT CALLED FOR OPEN AUDITIONS.  SO WHY ARE YOU SUGGESTING NOW THAT THE LINE BE CUT IN HALF?!?!?!?


    ANOTHER THING YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING IS THAT THE WHITE SOX SHOULD BE SEEKING PLAYERS BETTER THAN THE LIKES OF WHAT TILSON PROJECTS TO BE.  YOU SAID IT YOURSELF THAT HE'S A C+.


    THE PURPOSE OF REBUILDING IS TO FIND THE GRADE A'S THAT CAN CARRY YOUR TEAM (MOCADA, GIOLITO).  NOT STOCK PILE C+ TALENT THAT IS ALWAYS AVAILABLE.

    If Tilson puts up a 680 this year with good defense, he's worth another go in 2018 considering the "average CFer" was 713 this past year. If by 2019 he's a low-mid 700's, he's a solid regular.
    Platoons are half-baked auditions as it doesn't show whether the guy can hit both handed pitchers plus it doesn't give him the chance to solidify his defense by regular play. 
    You didn't suggest platooning Anderson or Frazier or Abreu and the reason undoubtedly is you think they're solid enough to play every day but Tilson, Liriano, Davidson, etc. aren't.  Then the real purpose of platooning is, as you said, is to "minimize suckage".  In other words, to create more wins. Much like the Wieters, Fister ideas this platooning notion is that it makes the 2017 season more palatable for fans.
    Where I see that the Sox have everything to gain and nothing to lose by giving Liriano, Tilson, etc a full go of AB's this year.  If one or more steps up and proves themselves, the Sox have a player for the future. If none do, and the team loses 95+, then it improves the 2018 draft slot.

    Going from 70 to 75 wins by hauling in 30+ year olds or trying to "minimize suckage" through platooning 24-27 year olds is a nothing to gain, something to lose strategy if all it does is drop the Sox a couple notches in the 2018 draft.

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    Re: FULL OF BEANS or just DELUSIONAL

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