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    Jason Hammel

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:25 pm

    MAYBE THE BOARD WILL UNDERSTAND IT THIS WAY

    AT 10PM, IT MAKES SENSE TO SHUN THE 200LB CHICK SITTING AT THE END OF THE BAR

    AT 2AM, ITS AMAZING HOW MUCH BETTER LOOKING THAT SAME WOMAN LOOKS

    RIGHT NOW ITS 1:59AM.  TIME TO GET SOME QUALITY ON THE CHEAP

    YOU STILL HAVE TO FIELD A TEAM AND GIVE THE FANS SOMETHING SOME WHAT WATCHABLE

    AND AGAIN, NO YOUTH IS BEING SACRIFICED WITH THE MOVES I AM SUGGESTING
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:52 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:MAYBE THE BOARD WILL UNDERSTAND IT THIS WAY

    AT 10PM, IT MAKES SENSE TO SHUN THE 200LB CHICK SITTING AT THE END OF THE BAR

    AT 2AM, ITS AMAZING HOW MUCH BETTER LOOKING THAT SAME WOMAN LOOKS

    RIGHT NOW ITS 1:59AM.  TIME TO GET SOME QUALITY ON THE CHEAP

    YOU STILL HAVE TO FIELD A TEAM AND GIVE THE FANS SOMETHING SOME WHAT WATCHABLE

    AND AGAIN, NO YOUTH IS BEING SACRIFICED WITH THE MOVES I AM SUGGESTING

    Sox have been "un-watchable" for last 4 years in part because they've hauled in vets whose best days were behind them (Dunn, LaRoche, Cabrera, Shields, Latos, Frazier, )..   Now you want to bring the same kind of player in for "watchability" reasons.  I just can't see fans being more excited because a Wieters HR makes the Sox lose by 3 runs instead of 4. 
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:37 am

    What you are missing that all the players you listed where part of the plan.  All targeted early on in the winter, with the exception of Shields.


    What I am suggesting is taking advantage of what's available a week b4 spring training in order to fill a gapping hole that was not seriously addressed over the winter.


    there is a huge difference between what I am suggesting and how you are describing it.  Not to mention all your irrelevant assumption about how and why the 2017 White Sox will and must suck.


    the bottom line is the Wieters is better than anybody in the Sox camp today.  And he will most likely be better than all,with one possibly exception in 2018.  And is a good bet to be better than 4 of 6 in 2019 and after.  why not try to sign him on the cheap.


    The only legit counter is the Sox might drop a place or 3 in draft pick selection, but even that claim is dubious.  If Wieters is not that good as you claim, will he really be adding any extra wins?  And if he is as good as I claim, he is not as good enough add any extra wins if the rest of the team sucks out loud.


    BTW, why does this team automatically suck out loud?  There are 24 other players.  the White Sox won 78 games in 2016.  Sure they lost their best pitcher and best hitter, which according to their WAR would be an 11 win loss.  But can't the 2017 Sox nickel and dime that away?  Especially if some of the auditions like Rymer Liriano pass on the first try?


    Seems to me, you are trying to play both sides of the argument.


    where as I am simply suggesting that you improve wherever possible, even if the improvement appears to be insignificant.  Sometimes the accumulation of minor incremental improvements pays off big.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:48 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:What I am suggesting is taking advantage of what's available a week b4 spring training in order to fill a gapping hole that was not seriously addressed over the winter.>>

    Exactly what contenders playing win-now do.  They can't afford holes.


    Not to mention all your irrelevant assumption about how and why the 2017 White Sox will and must suck.the bottom line is the Wieters is better than anybody in the Sox camp today.  And he will most likely be better than all,with one possibly exception in 2018.  And is a good bet to be better than 4 of 6 in 2019 and after.  why not try to sign him on the cheap.>>

    You are really over-rating this guy.  Both Anderson and Frazier beat Wieter's 1.7 WAR last year. He was basically equal to Melky and Abreu. Sox fans should be excited over a Melky-equivalent "on the cheap" ? 
    It's been 5 years since Wieters has been a real good hitter and he's 31 now. He had a strong 1st half hitting last year, but faded in the 2nd half.  Plus, his framing and throwing skills as a Catcher are suspect.  There are reasons no one has picked him up. Those same concerns would dampen whatever trade value he has at midseason even if he hit well in 1H 2017.

    Plus how do you even assure he'd be on Sox team in 2019 unless you offer him a two-year guarantee plus option year for 2019 ?  For this guy ?
    By 2019, he's likely to be the next Adam LaRoche.


    BTW, why does this team automatically suck out loud?  There are 24 other players.  the White Sox won 78 games in 2016.  Sure they lost their best pitcher and best hitter, which according to their WAR would be an 11 win loss.  But can't the 2017 Sox nickel and dime that away?  Especially if some of the auditions like Rymer Liriano pass on the first try?..
    Sometimes the accumulation of minor incremental improvements pays off big.>>

    That the 2017 Sox = 2012 Cubs is almost a lock . Sox are already dubious at 2b, RF, CF and DH.  Add 3b and the rotation to that list when Frazier and Quintana get traded.  Plus Melky, Abreu and Anderson aren't going to be stars in 2017. This team is headed to 95+ losses.   So why not take advantage of that like Cubs did and get a stud in next year's draft ? No matter where Wieters signs this year  he will be totally irrelevant by 2020-2022.  But 2018's draft pick will be VERY relevant by then.


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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:23 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:What I am suggesting is taking advantage of what's available a week b4 spring training in order to fill a gapping hole that was not seriously addressed over the winter.>>

    Exactly what contenders playing win-now do.  They can't afford holes.

    WHY CAN'T THEY?!?!?!?


    Not to mention all your irrelevant assumption about how and why the 2017 White Sox will and must suck.the bottom line is the Wieters is better than anybody in the Sox camp today.  And he will most likely be better than all,with one possibly exception in 2018.  And is a good bet to be better than 4 of 6 in 2019 and after.  why not try to sign him on the cheap.>>

    You are really over-rating this guy.  Both Anderson and Frazier beat Wieter's 1.7 WAR last year. He was basically equal to Melky and Abreu. Sox fans should be excited over a Melky-equivalent "on the cheap" ? 

    WIETER'S IS REPLACING GEO SOTO.  SO AGAIN, YOU ARE COMPLETELY DISTORTING WHAT I AM SAYING

    It's been 5 years since Wieters has been a real good hitter and he's 31 now. He had a strong 1st half hitting last year,

    WHICH IS WHY HE WAS AN ALL STAR LAST YEAR

    but faded in the 2nd half.  Plus, his framing and throwing skills as a Catcher are suspect.  There are reasons no one has picked him up. Those same concerns would dampen whatever trade value he has at midseason even if he hit well in 1H 2017.

    AND THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH THE FACT HE IS BETTER THAN GEO SOTO, THE MAN HE WOULD BE REPLACING

    Plus how do you even assure he'd be on Sox team in 2019

    I DON'T ASSUME IT

    unless you offer him a two-year guarantee plus option year for 2019 ?  For this guy ?

    AND I NEVER SUGGESTED IT

    By 2019, he's likely to be the next Adam LaRoche.

    AND BY 2019 WHERE WILL GEO SOTO BE?  FOR THAT MATTER, WHERE WILL KEVAN SMITH, ALFREDO GONZALEZ, AND ROBERTO PENA BE?  MY GUESS IS THAT WIETERS WILL STILL BE AN MLB CATCHER IN 2019.  ALTHOUGH BY THEN HE MIGHT BE ON PAR WITH WHAT GEO SOTO IS TODAY.  BUT THAN, YOU HAVE SAID THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH


    BTW, why does this team automatically suck out loud?  There are 24 other players.  the White Sox won 78 games in 2016.  Sure they lost their best pitcher and best hitter, which according to their WAR would be an 11 win loss.  But can't the 2017 Sox nickel and dime that away?  Especially if some of the auditions like Rymer Liriano pass on the first try?..
    Sometimes the accumulation of minor incremental improvements pays off big.>>

    That the 2017 Sox = 2012 Cubs is almost a lock . Sox are already dubious at 2b, RF, CF and DH.  Add 3b and the rotation to that list when Frazier and Quintana get traded.  Plus Melky, Abreu and Anderson aren't going to be stars in 2017. This team is headed to 95+ losses.   So why not take advantage of that like Cubs did and get a stud in next year's draft ? No matter where Wieters signs this year  he will be totally irrelevant by 2020-2022.  But 2018's draft pick will be VERY relevant by then.




    AGAIN WITH THE CUBS!!!!!

    TRY RE-READING WHAT I WROTE.

    IF THE WHITE SOX ARE A 95 LOSS TEAM HAS WE SPEAK, WHAT DOES WIETERS MAKE THEM, A 94 LOSS TEAM?!?!  

    AGAIN, YOU SHOW HOW INCONSISTANT YOU ARE WHEN YOU ARGUE.  MELJEY AND ABREAU AND ANDERSON WON'T BE STARS ON WHAT BASIS?!?!?  YET THE SIX PACK OF CRAP CATCHERS CURRENTLY IN CAMP, WELL ONE OF THEM MIGHT ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS A QUALITY REGULAR DESPITE ZERO BASIS IN THEIR STATS FOR BELIEVING THIS.  THIS OF COURSE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF NARVAEZ.  BUT THEN, I HAVE ALREDY SHOWN YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE PLENTY OF AT BATS FOR HIM REGARDLESS OF WHO THE 2ND CATCHER IS.

    BTW, JUST WHY ARE THE WHITE SOX DESTINED FOR 95 LOSSES.  EVER CONSIDER THAT IF SOME OF THE AUDITIONS WIN ON THE FIRST TRY, THAT WOULD TRANSLATE INTO WINS?  ANDERSON AND RODON TAKING A STEP OR 3 FORWARD EQUALS MORE WINS.  LIRIANO REGAINING HIS TOP 100 PROSPECT FORM EQUALS WINS.  MONCADA COULD BURST ONTO THE SCENE, AND IF ITS TO REPLACE THE 33RD BEST 2B, THAT IS WINS.  ONE OF THE STAR PITCHING PROSPECTS RECENTLY ACQUIRED COULD ALSO BURST ON THE SCENE, MORE WINS THERE.  JAMES SHIELDS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE, LESS LOSSES.

    WHY IS YOUR MIND SO CLOSED TO THE POSSIBILITIES.

    FOR THE RECORD, NONE OF THE ABOVE MEANS THEY ABANDON THE REBUILDING PROJECT.  BUT THIS NOTION THAT REBUILDING MEANS AN AUTOMATIC 100 LOSSES READS LIKES FLAWED AND LAZY ANALYSIS.  ESPECIALLY WHEN IT MORE CUB CENTRIC THAN WHAT IS ACTUALLY PLAYING AT THE CELL
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:08 am

    Two year deal with the Royals. Next.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:46 am

    IT WAS JASON HAMMEL THAT SIGNED THE TWO YEAR DEAL


    AND NO THE KARK WOULD NOT SUGGEST THE WHITE SOX SHOULD HAVE MATCHED THAT OR GOTTEN INTO A BIDDING WAR.


    ***********************


    NEXT WOULD BE DOUG FISTER.  BUT ONLY IF THE WHITE SOX GET OFF THEIR ASS AND TRADE QUINTANA.  IF THEY CAN'T GET AUDREY MEADOWS FROM THE PIRATES, LOWER THE DEMANDS A BIT AND GET MOTHER TUCKER FROM HOUSTON BUT LET THEM KEEP EITHER MUSGRAVE OR MARTES.  


    BETTER YET, LET THEM KEEP BOTH AND TAKE OF RONNIE DAWSON
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:49 am


    AND THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH THE FACT HE IS BETTER THAN GEO SOTO, THE MAN HE WOULD BE REPLACING
    Of course he's better but that's not how the Sox are rolling this year.
    They've passed up every free agent that could have improved  RF, 2b, DH, CF and the bullpen.  They've only taken very cheap (under $ 2 mil) flyers on marginal guys with one exception - Holland at $ 6 mil but that was in anticipation of a Quintana trade and to save other arms from wear/tear. 
    Giving Narvaez a shot at Catcher is consistent with how Sox are handling CF (Tilson) and RF (Liriano/Wily Garcia).  Sure, Liriano and Tilson may be better prospects than Narvaez, but they aren't top prospects either. All three of those guys might be backups by 2019.  
    See no reason for the Sox to make an exception and try to improve at one spot (Catcher) with a 31 yr. old who's going to cost at least $ 5-6 mil or even more realistically $ 8-9 in a non-contending year.
    AGAIN, YOU SHOW HOW INCONSISTANT YOU ARE WHEN YOU ARGUE.  MELJEY AND ABREAU AND ANDERSON WON'T BE STARS ON WHAT BASIS?!?!?  YET THE SIX PACK OF CRAP CATCHERS CURRENTLY IN CAMP, WELL ONE OF THEM MIGHT ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS A QUALITY REGULAR DESPITE ZERO BASIS IN THEIR STATS FOR BELIEVING THIS.  THIS OF COURSE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF NARVAEZ.  BUT THEN, I HAVE ALREDY SHOWN YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE PLENTY OF AT BATS FOR HIM REGARDLESS OF WHO THE 2ND CATCHER IS.
    BTW, JUST WHY ARE THE WHITE SOX DESTINED FOR 95 LOSSES.  EVER CONSIDER THAT IF SOME OF THE AUDITIONS WIN ON THE FIRST TRY, THAT WOULD TRANSLATE INTO WINS?  ANDERSON AND RODON TAKING A STEP OR 3 FORWARD EQUALS MORE WINS.  LIRIANO REGAINING HIS TOP 100 PROSPECT FORM EQUALS WINS.  MONCADA COULD BURST ONTO THE SCENE, AND IF ITS TO REPLACE THE 33RD BEST 2B, THAT IS WINS.  ONE OF THE STAR PITCHING PROSPECTS RECENTLY ACQUIRED COULD ALSO BURST ON THE SCENE, MORE WINS THERE.  JAMES SHIELDS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE, LESS LOSSES. WHY IS YOUR MIND SO CLOSED TO THE POSSIBILITIES.
    FOR THE RECORD, NONE OF THE ABOVE MEANS THEY ABANDON THE REBUILDING PROJECT.  BUT THIS NOTION THAT REBUILDING MEANS AN AUTOMATIC 100 LOSSES READS LIKES FLAWED AND LAZY ANALYSIS.  ESPECIALLY WHEN IT MORE CUB CENTRIC THAN WHAT IS ACTUALLY PLAYING AT THE CELL

    Sox set their course for 2017 by trading Sale and Eaton.  Fans are bought into the idea of playing younger guys, and seeing lots of losses for the next couple years.  They are tired of the deception that 30+ year old vets like Dunn, Cabrera, Robertson, LaRoche, Shields, etc. will be difference-makers.  There is no reason to treat them to another slice of this "win-now" deception - that improving 1/9 of the offense will matter. If Wieters adds 2-3 wins to a team that truly doesn't have a prayer of contending all those extra wins might do is knock the Sox down a peg or two in 2018 draft and that could be costly.

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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:07 pm

    rmapasad wrote:

    AND THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH THE FACT HE IS BETTER THAN GEO SOTO, THE MAN HE WOULD BE REPLACING
    Of course he's better but that's not how the Sox are rolling this year.
    They've passed up every free agent that could have improved  RF, 2b, DH, CF and the bullpen.  They've only taken very cheap (under $ 2 mil) flyers on marginal guys with one exception - Holland at $ 6 mil but that was in anticipation of a Quintana trade and to save other arms from wear/tear. 
    Giving Narvaez a shot at Catcher is consistent with how Sox are handling CF (Tilson) and RF (Liriano/Wily Garcia).  Sure, Liriano and Tilson may be better prospects than Narvaez, but they aren't top prospects either. All three of those guys might be backups by 2019.  
    See no reason for the Sox to make an exception and try to improve at one spot (Catcher) with a 31 yr. old who's going to cost at least $ 5-6 mil or even more realistically $ 8-9 in a non-contending year.
    AGAIN, YOU SHOW HOW INCONSISTANT YOU ARE WHEN YOU ARGUE.  MELJEY AND ABREAU AND ANDERSON WON'T BE STARS ON WHAT BASIS?!?!?  YET THE SIX PACK OF CRAP CATCHERS CURRENTLY IN CAMP, WELL ONE OF THEM MIGHT ESTABLISH THEMSELVES AS A QUALITY REGULAR DESPITE ZERO BASIS IN THEIR STATS FOR BELIEVING THIS.  THIS OF COURSE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF NARVAEZ.  BUT THEN, I HAVE ALREDY SHOWN YOU THAT THERE WOULD BE PLENTY OF AT BATS FOR HIM REGARDLESS OF WHO THE 2ND CATCHER IS.
    BTW, JUST WHY ARE THE WHITE SOX DESTINED FOR 95 LOSSES.  EVER CONSIDER THAT IF SOME OF THE AUDITIONS WIN ON THE FIRST TRY, THAT WOULD TRANSLATE INTO WINS?  ANDERSON AND RODON TAKING A STEP OR 3 FORWARD EQUALS MORE WINS.  LIRIANO REGAINING HIS TOP 100 PROSPECT FORM EQUALS WINS.  MONCADA COULD BURST ONTO THE SCENE, AND IF ITS TO REPLACE THE 33RD BEST 2B, THAT IS WINS.  ONE OF THE STAR PITCHING PROSPECTS RECENTLY ACQUIRED COULD ALSO BURST ON THE SCENE, MORE WINS THERE.  JAMES SHIELDS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE, LESS LOSSES. WHY IS YOUR MIND SO CLOSED TO THE POSSIBILITIES.
    FOR THE RECORD, NONE OF THE ABOVE MEANS THEY ABANDON THE REBUILDING PROJECT.  BUT THIS NOTION THAT REBUILDING MEANS AN AUTOMATIC 100 LOSSES READS LIKES FLAWED AND LAZY ANALYSIS.  ESPECIALLY WHEN IT MORE CUB CENTRIC THAN WHAT IS ACTUALLY PLAYING AT THE CELL

    Sox set their course for 2017 by trading Sale and Eaton.

    And I have never stated that they should change that course

    Fans are bought into the idea of playing younger guys, and seeing lots of losses for the next couple years.

    Younger doesn't mean better.  Quit dealing in the abstract and look at what the White Sox actually have.

    They are tired of the deception that 30+ year old vets like Dunn, Cabrera, Robertson, LaRoche, Shields, etc. will be difference-makers.

    I never claimed Wieters would be a difference maker.  This is you just repeating the same thing over and over again while refusing to see the White Sox absolutely suck at catcher.  What you fail to comprehend is that rebuilding is different from deliberately sucking

    There is no reason to treat them to another slice of this "win-now" deception - that improving 1/9 of the offense will matter. If Wieters adds 2-3 wins to a team that truly doesn't have a prayer of contending all those extra wins might do is knock the Sox down a peg or two in 2018 draft and that could be costly.


    I doubt it would be costly.  Frank Thomas was drafted #7.  Contary to you obvious overrating of sabermetrics, their is no perfect correlation between draft order and who has the best career.


    The other thing you complete miss because your are focusing on the abstract instead of the reality of the White Sox roster is that 4/5th of the projected rotation is trade bait.  Contrary to your claims of what sabermetrics state, wins for pitchers do matter.  Even if its at a subconscience level.  Take 2 pitchers with an ERA of 3.00.  The pitcher that is 8-2 will be deemed better than the one 4-6.


    If you actually look at what is on the current White Sox roster, instead of trying to remember the 2012 Cubs, you would see a team that will be about in the mid 70's in wins with an outside chance of 500.  Before you make your erronous claim that chasing 500 would fool the fans, try thinking.  This team still has Quintana.  He needs a good WL% in order to maintain that lofty trade value.  Ditto everybody else not named Carlos Rodon.  However, I don't see how Rodon losing due to lack of run support helps his development.


    PS, I finally looked at the 2011 and 2012 Cubs.  I don't see any of the wild experimentation in the field that you claimed happened.  The Cubs sucked because Zambrano and Soriano lead the collapse of faded veterans from 2008/9.  it was not some grand master plan by Epstein where by youhave to lose 100 b4 you win 100
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:25 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:

    AND THIS HAS ZERO TO DO WITH THE FACT HE IS BETTER THAN GEO SOTO, THE MAN HE WOULD BE REPLACING

    I doubt it would be costly.  Frank Thomas was drafted #7.  Contary to you obvious overrating of sabermetrics, their is no perfect correlation between draft order and who has the best career.


    The other thing you complete miss because your are focusing on the abstract instead of the reality of the White Sox roster is that 4/5th of the projected rotation is trade bait.  Contrary to your claims of what sabermetrics state, wins for pitchers do matter.  Even if its at a subconscience level.  Take 2 pitchers with an ERA of 3.00.  The pitcher that is 8-2 will be deemed better than the one 4-6.


    If you actually look at what is on the current White Sox roster, instead of trying to remember the 2012 Cubs, you would see a team that will be about in the mid 70's in wins with an outside chance of 500.  Before you make your erronous claim that chasing 500 would fool the fans, try thinking.  This team still has Quintana.  He needs a good WL% in order to maintain that lofty trade value.  Ditto everybody else not named Carlos Rodon.  However, I don't see how Rodon losing due to lack of run support helps his development.


    PS, I finally looked at the 2011 and 2012 Cubs.  I don't see any of the wild experimentation in the field that you claimed happened.  The Cubs sucked because Zambrano and Soriano lead the collapse of faded veterans from 2008/9.  it was not some grand master plan by Epstein where by youhave to lose 100 b4 you win 100

    1)  Both the #1 and # 2 pick slots in the draft have the highest success of any other picks.  Below that it's more of a crapshoot.  Actually the 13th and 14th picks have a higher combined WAR than the # 3 and # 4 picks.    Some draft years are so thin that only 1-2 guys are real studs and they're no-brainers (Bryce Harper, Kris Bryant types). Below that, making a good pick depends on good scouting.  Last time Sox scouts made good offensive draft picks (Thomas, Ventura, Durham) was 25 years ago. When it comes to scouting out a stud hitter these days, Sox need as much of a no-brainer draft pick as they can get.

    2) As to trade bait, today's sabermetric GM's realize Win/Loss % is teammate-influenced and they focus on quality of pitcher's arm, his control, and run prevention abilities.

    3)  You think Sox have an outside chance of .500 even when they only won 78 last year with Sale and Eaton ?  Please. 
    [size=18][size=13]Even it were possible, there aren't any trophies for barely making .500.  Right now, Fan Graphs has Sox projected at 72 wins and that is with Frazier, Quintana, Robertson aboard.  At 72 wins, they have the 3rd draft pick next year.  After the above three depart, the Sox look to be in line for # 1 draft pick in 2018.  Let's not screw that up. 

    4) Rebuilders are usually stuck with expensive guys they can't trade.   Cubs had Zambrano and Soriano.  Sox have Shields and Cabrera.  So play the 30+ year olds you're stuck with, don't add any more of the same types, scoop up real prospects in trades, experiment with younger and mostly marginal guys in open slots trying to find that occasional keeper and then build through the draft.   It's not a deliberate plan to try to lose 100 games - but it's sure helpful to take advantage of the benefits of losing 100 games.

    5) Sure, you don't want your younger players to become discouraged by losing but they know the score.  The major league minimum is $ 1/2 million per year and we know how high it can go for established guys.  That's a lot of incentive for a young guy to bust his butt to stick in the majors or for a guy like Rodon to pitch his way into a $ 15-20 mil extension.
    Only guys who have any guaranteed salaries for next year are Shields, Robertson and Jones.  Everyone else has to sing for next year's supper.  This team will be trying.















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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:30 pm

    1. You assume the White Sox are presently the worst or 2nd worst team.  That's a tough claim to make. Especially if Quintana doesn't get traded

    2. blah blah blah. A losing team effects all the players on it.  You overrate stats and underrate the intangibles

    3.  SOX have a better shot at 500 than 5 of 6 catchers in camp being quality major leaguers.

    4.  More of your abstract gibberish where you refuse to reference the actual situation

    5.  LMAO. You claim the team will be trying yet you tell the front office to stop trying.  Do you even realize how often you contradict yourself
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by sox55 on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:10 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:1. You assume the White Sox are presently the worst or 2nd worst team.  That's a tough claim to make. Especially if Quintana doesn't get traded

    2. blah blah blah. A losing team effects all the players on it.  You overrate stats and underrate the intangibles

    3.  SOX have a better shot at 500 than 5 of 6 catchers in camp being quality major leaguers.

    4.  More of your abstract gibberish where you refuse to reference the actual situation

    5.  LMAO. You claim the team will be trying yet you tell the front office to stop trying.  Do you even realize how often you contradict yourself
    A Quasi WIN NOW is still in motion!
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:13 am

    sox55 wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:1. You assume the White Sox are presently the worst or 2nd worst team.  That's a tough claim to make. Especially if Quintana doesn't get traded

    2. blah blah blah. A losing team effects all the players on it.  You overrate stats and underrate the intangibles

    3.  SOX have a better shot at 500 than 5 of 6 catchers in camp being quality major leaguers.

    4.  More of your abstract gibberish where you refuse to reference the actual situation

    5.  LMAO. You claim the team will be trying yet you tell the front office to stop trying.  Do you even realize how often you contradict yourself
    A Quasi WIN NOW is still in motion!


    THE KARK can definitely see what John is referring too.


    Quintana, Robertson, and at least one of the big bats should have been traded by now.


    and as long as you have them, the pathway to the 2nd wildcard is open.  Not to say the White Sox should chase it


    But if Moncada has a spring that just forces his way onto the team and Kopech is an instant Nolan Ryan instead of Steve Dalkowski and Rymer Liriano shows why he was a top 100 prospect b4 the injury...


    Then you have Cabrera and Frazier playing for contracts and Abreau bouncing back from that hidden injury last spring.....


    Heck, the 2012 Sox won 85 games with a team that about the same as this one.  Other than the catchers spot of course.


    ********************************************************


    Now this is not to say let's go for it.  But this notion that the White Sox are destined for 100 loses and that signing Wieters will do nothing but screw them out of a #1 pick is really nothing more than speculation by one person who refuses to see any other alternative
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:22 am

    and as long as you have them, the pathway to the 2nd wildcard is open.  Not to say the White Sox should chase it


    As long as that path is open, Kenny will have his junk out, spanking at the thought of getting that one over the hill bat to try to get that second wildcard. 
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:20 am

    sox55 wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:1. You assume the White Sox are presently the worst or 2nd worst team.  That's a tough claim to make. Especially if Quintana doesn't get traded

    2. blah blah blah. A losing team effects all the players on it.  You overrate stats and underrate the intangibles

    3.  SOX have a better shot at 500 than 5 of 6 catchers in camp being quality major leaguers.

    4.  More of your abstract gibberish where you refuse to reference the actual situation

    5.  LMAO. You claim the team will be trying yet you tell the front office to stop trying.  Do you even realize how often you contradict yourself
    A Quasi WIN NOW is still in motion!

    Yeah, front office has gotta determine whether they can accept 65 wins or somehow feel obligated to strive for 75 wins in 2017.  With Quintana and all the contractual lame ducks (Frazier, Cabrera, Holland, Gonzalez, Jennings, Robertson, Shields, Abreu) aboard, the drive for 75 is still alive !!
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:46 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    sox55 wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:1. You assume the White Sox are presently the worst or 2nd worst team.  That's a tough claim to make. Especially if Quintana doesn't get traded

    2. blah blah blah. A losing team effects all the players on it.  You overrate stats and underrate the intangibles

    3.  SOX have a better shot at 500 than 5 of 6 catchers in camp being quality major leaguers.

    4.  More of your abstract gibberish where you refuse to reference the actual situation

    5.  LMAO. You claim the team will be trying yet you tell the front office to stop trying.  Do you even realize how often you contradict yourself
    A Quasi WIN NOW is still in motion!

    Yeah, front office has gotta determine whether they can accept 65 wins or somehow feel obligated to strive for 75 wins in 2017.  With Quintana and all the contractual lame ducks (Frazier, Cabrera, Holland, Gonzalez, Jennings, Robertson, Shields, Abreu) aboard, the drive for 75 is still alive !!


    AGAIN, YOU MISINTEREPT

    FIRST, WHY ACCEPT 65 WINS WHEN RIGHT NOW, ITS NOTHING MORE THAN AN ASSUMPTION ON YOUR PART

    SECOND, WHO IS DEMANDING 75 WINS?  YOU COMPLETELY DISTORT MY PREMISE OF IMPROVING WHEREVER AND WHENEVER POSSIBLE.  WIETERS MAKES THE TEAM BETTER TODAY.  THERE IS TOO MUCH UNKNOWN REGARDING YOUR BASELESS CLAIM THAT HE SCREWS THE WHITE SOX OUT OF TOP DRAFT PICKS.  I SEE ZERO HINDERANCE TO THE REBUILDING PROGRAM BY SIGNING WIETERS.

    THIRD, THE WHITE SOX DON'T FEEL OBLIGATED TO WIN 75 AS YOU PUT.  THEY FEEL OBLIGATED TO GET FULL VALUE FOR QUINTANA AND ROBERTSON AND FRAZIER.

    THE WHITE SOX ALSO REALIZE THAT AS OF TODAY, THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY BETTER THAN THESE 3, WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE TRYING TO TIME THE MARKET.

    PERSONALLY, I FEEL THEY ARE OVER VALUING QUINTANA.  I TRADE HIM THIS WEEK IF ANYBODY IS STILL WILLING TO GIVE SAY 80-90% OF THE ORIGINAL ASKING PRICE.

    i WOULD LOVE TO TRADE ROBERTSON, BUT I THINK THE SOX MIGHT BE CORRECT IN THINKING HE MIGHT PEAK IN JULY.  THAT SAID, IF THE VALUE IS THEIR, I TRADE ROBERTSON AND NATE JONES THIS WEEK.

    TODD FRAZIER IS ANOTHER GUY WHO YOU MAY HAVE TO WAIT ON.  NOW THAT HE IS MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE AMERICAN LEAGUE, HOPEFULLY HIS AVERAGE GOES UP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POWER.

    BTW, IS THERE REALLY NO MARKET FOR MELKEY CABRERA?!?!?!?
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:55 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:

    BTW, IS THERE REALLY NO MARKET FOR MELKEY CABRERA?!?!?!?

    I don't think there is. I think Melkey is another case of the White Sox bidding against themselves.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:01 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Heck, the 2012 Sox won 85 games with a team that about the same as this one.  Other than the catchers spot of course.
    ********************************************************
    Now this is not to say let's go for it.  But this notion that the White Sox are destined for 100 loses and that signing Wieters will do nothing but screw them out of a #1 pick is really nothing more than speculation by one person who refuses to see any other alternative

    So it's now the drive for 85 !  Yippee.
    OK, say we buy that  Abreu=Konerko, Lawrie=Beckham, Anderson=Ramirez (who was brilliant defensively that year), Frazier= Dunn (same 40 HRs and shitty BA), Cabrera= DeAza (last decent yr on Sox), Gonzalez=Floyd and even throw in Wieters to equal Pierzynski. 
    Still a couple glaring omissions from the 2012 team.  Sox had both Quintana and Chris Sale and his 3.05 ERA and 6 WAR. Plus Peavy and his 3.37 ERA and 5 WAR. Who in 2017 would duplicate Peavy ? Shields ?   Plus Rios had the best season of his career and that was 5 WAR.  Liriano ain't gonna come close to that. 
    Most important, even with Sale aboard, and Peavy, Rios, Pierzynski having career years, the Sox still got the booby prize and were watching TV in October.  
    Here we were, finally ready for a season where the Sox faced up to reality, are willing to take their medicine, be patient, and build for the future.  But now you want to put them back on Fantasy Island again...
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:57 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:AGAIN, YOU MISINTEREPT
    FIRST, WHY ACCEPT 65 WINS WHEN RIGHT NOW, ITS NOTHING MORE THAN AN ASSUMPTION ON YOUR PART
    SECOND, WHO IS DEMANDING 75 WINS?  YOU COMPLETELY DISTORT MY PREMISE OF IMPROVING WHEREVER AND WHENEVER POSSIBLE.  WIETERS MAKES THE TEAM BETTER TODAY.  THERE IS TOO MUCH UNKNOWN REGARDING YOUR BASELESS CLAIM THAT HE SCREWS THE WHITE SOX OUT OF TOP DRAFT PICKS.  I SEE ZERO HINDERANCE TO THE REBUILDING PROGRAM BY SIGNING WIETERS.
    THIRD, THE WHITE SOX DON'T FEEL OBLIGATED TO WIN 75 AS YOU PUT.  THEY FEEL OBLIGATED TO GET FULL VALUE FOR QUINTANA AND ROBERTSON AND FRAZIER.
    THE WHITE SOX ALSO REALIZE THAT AS OF TODAY, THEY DON'T HAVE ANYBODY BETTER THAN THESE 3, WHICH IS WHY THEY ARE TRYING TO TIME THE MARKET.
    PERSONALLY, I FEEL THEY ARE OVER VALUING QUINTANA.  I TRADE HIM THIS WEEK IF ANYBODY IS STILL WILLING TO GIVE SAY 80-90% OF THE ORIGINAL ASKING PRICE.
    i WOULD LOVE TO TRADE ROBERTSON, BUT I THINK THE SOX MIGHT BE CORRECT IN THINKING HE MIGHT PEAK IN JULY.  THAT SAID, IF THE VALUE IS THEIR, I TRADE ROBERTSON AND NATE JONES THIS WEEK.
    TODD FRAZIER IS ANOTHER GUY WHO YOU MAY HAVE TO WAIT ON.  NOW THAT HE IS MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE AMERICAN LEAGUE, HOPEFULLY HIS AVERAGE GOES UP WITHOUT ANY LOSS OF POWER.
    BTW, IS THERE REALLY NO MARKET FOR MELKEY CABRERA?!?!?!?

    Several contenders (Dodgers, Orioles, Giants, Nationals) have shaky LFers, but clearly Melky didn't look that much better. Crappy defense, limited power and no speed and at age 32 none of that was going to get better. Then there's the $ 14 mil salary.   So Sox are in same boat as you correctly say they are with Robertson. Hoping Melky hits .280+ and waiting for a contender's LF situation to go sour. At that point, Melky looks like a safer option than a contender's current .210 hitting LFer or calling up AAA guy.   So then Sox can eat some of Melky's remaining salary, get a B-/C+ prospect and move on.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:07 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Heck, the 2012 Sox won 85 games with a team that about the same as this one.  Other than the catchers spot of course.
    ********************************************************
    Now this is not to say let's go for it.  But this notion that the White Sox are destined for 100 loses and that signing Wieters will do nothing but screw them out of a #1 pick is really nothing more than speculation by one person who refuses to see any other alternative

    So it's now the drive for 85 !  Yippee.
    OK, say we buy that  Abreu=Konerko, Lawrie=Beckham, Anderson=Ramirez (who was brilliant defensively that year), Frazier= Dunn (same 40 HRs and shitty BA), Cabrera= DeAza (last decent yr on Sox), Gonzalez=Floyd and even throw in Wieters to equal Pierzynski. 
    Still a couple glaring omissions from the 2012 team.  Sox had both Quintana and Chris Sale and his 3.05 ERA and 6 WAR. Plus Peavy and his 3.37 ERA and 5 WAR. Who in 2017 would duplicate Peavy ? Shields ?   Plus Rios had the best season of his career and that was 5 WAR.  Liriano ain't gonna come close to that. 
    Most important, even with Sale aboard, and Peavy, Rios, Pierzynski having career years, the Sox still got the booby prize and were watching TV in October.  
    Here we were, finally ready for a season where the Sox faced up to reality, are willing to take their medicine, be patient, and build for the future.  But now you want to put them back on Fantasy Island again...


    LEARN HOW TO READ

    BETTER YET, LEARN HOW TO ANALYZE

    YOU HAVE BORING THIS BOARD FOR 2 WEEKS WITH FALSE LOGIC, BOGUS STUDIES, AND MISINFORMATION

    THEN YOU WONDER WHY I'M ALWAYS TELLING YOU TO FUCK OFF
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:14 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    Heck, the 2012 Sox won 85 games with a team that about the same as this one.  Other than the catchers spot of course.
    ********************************************************
    Now this is not to say let's go for it.  But this notion that the White Sox are destined for 100 loses and that signing Wieters will do nothing but screw them out of a #1 pick is really nothing more than speculation by one person who refuses to see any other alternative

    So it's now the drive for 85 !  Yippee.
    OK, say we buy that  Abreu=Konerko, Lawrie=Beckham, Anderson=Ramirez (who was brilliant defensively that year), Frazier= Dunn (same 40 HRs and shitty BA), Cabrera= DeAza (last decent yr on Sox), Gonzalez=Floyd and even throw in Wieters to equal Pierzynski. 
    Still a couple glaring omissions from the 2012 team.  Sox had both Quintana and Chris Sale and his 3.05 ERA and 6 WAR. Plus Peavy and his 3.37 ERA and 5 WAR. Who in 2017 would duplicate Peavy ? Shields ?   Plus Rios had the best season of his career and that was 5 WAR.  Liriano ain't gonna come close to that. 
    Most important, even with Sale aboard, and Peavy, Rios, Pierzynski having career years, the Sox still got the booby prize and were watching TV in October.  
    Here we were, finally ready for a season where the Sox faced up to reality, are willing to take their medicine, be patient, and build for the future.  But now you want to put them back on Fantasy Island again...


    LEARN HOW TO READ

    BETTER YET, LEARN HOW TO ANALYZE

    YOU HAVE BORING THIS BOARD FOR 2 WEEKS WITH FALSE LOGIC, BOGUS STUDIES, AND MISINFORMATION

    THEN YOU WONDER WHY I'M ALWAYS TELLING YOU TO FUCK OFF

    You are dealing with what ifs. What if Wieters is signed? What if we don't have a catcher? Who the fuck cares? This team isn't making the playoffs. There is no Goddamn reason to pick up a catcher who may have something left in the tank to carry them through this year or the next. If he isn't already on the team and isn't part of the long term plan, he can fuck off! As someone who actually spends money and goes to games, I am looking toward the future. I want to see if the Kids Can Play, not if some 31 year old douchebag who wants to AUDITION for a contract with another team can play.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:26 pm

    Nomads44 wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Liriano was once a top 100 prospect if I am not mistaken

    Tillson was a consistent top 10 in the Cards org

    Now these are the type of guys you audition

    Tilson made the Cards' top ten once a couple years ago, coming in at #9.  Liriano was a huge flop, but indeed was #49 baseball wide in 2012.  They are each worth fliers, but all this is common sense.  Don't know why you are stressing your points so much.  If Wieters is CHEAP, why not, but he is an older stopgap.  If nothing else, I would hope for a "Wieters' type equivalent" in return from one of the trades yet to be made.  If it can be a strong prospect C, fine, but if it is a major league ready medium prospect, that might suffice until Collins is ready.  Not arguing against Wieters unless it is a high cost, just really confused by your pressing your point as if he is the "must have" answer.  Narvaez and Soto might prove enough for this season.  Neither will be an all star, but we don't need an all star.  We just need to put one that can handle the position behind the plate.

    JUST CHECKED THE ARCHIVES ON MLB 

    TILSON RATED #9 IN 2013, #7 IN 2014 AND #7 IN 2015 FOR THE CARDS

    2016 HE MADE THE BIGS.

    TILSON IS A LEGIT PROSPECT WORTHY OF A CHANCE.

    THE WHITE SOX HAVE ZERO CATCHERS AS GOOD OR AS READY AS TILSON

    THAT IS WHY YOU SIGN WIETERS.

    THERE ARE 486 GAMES TO BE PLAYED B4 THE 2020 SEASON BEGINS.

    CONTRARY TO SOMEBODY'S FALSE LOGIC, YOU CAN'T CAN'T PICK WHEN YOU FLIP THE SWITCH FROM LOSER TO WINNER
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:30 pm

    As for Rymer Liriano, back in 2011, MLB.COM had him as the Padres #3

    In 2012 he was the Padres #1 and considered #51 in all of basbeall

    In 2013, he missed a year due to injury.  However, he still cracked MLB top 100 at 79

    In 2014 he fell to #5 in the Padre org and out of the top 100.  Most likely due to injury recovery

    2015, he went to the Brewer org where he rated #21.  He missed 2016 with injury.

    So Liriano was not a huge flop.  He got hurt and was never given a chance.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:34 pm

    BTW, during this research I saw that Anthony Rizzo was rated #18 in all of baseball after the 2011 season

    Meaning he was notsome kind of flyer the Cubs made part of some facticious open audition that somebody here is trying to con everybody into believing.

    More like the specific target of a plan.  Just like the KARK claimed
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:40 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:As for Rymer Liriano, back in 2011, MLB.COM had him as the Padres #3

    In 2012 he was the Padres #1 and considered #51 in all of basbeall

    In 2013, he missed a year due to injury.  However, he still cracked MLB top 100 at 79

    In 2014 he fell to #5 in the Padre org and out of the top 100.  Most likely due to injury recovery

    2015, he went to the Brewer org where he rated #21.  He missed 2016 with injury.

    So Liriano was not a huge flop.  He got hurt and was never given a chance.

    He was a flop. If he wasn't a flop, he would have gotten a chance despite injury.

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