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    Jason Hammel

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    Deplorable Mark
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    Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:08 pm

    Any ideas why this guy is still a free agent?!?!?!


    TIME TO CASH OUT THE Q AND GET HAMMEL B4 THE ROYALS DO
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:25 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Any ideas why this guy is still a free agent?!?!?!


    TIME TO CASH OUT THE Q AND GET HAMMEL B4 THE ROYALS DO


    Yeah, he's 34 years old, made $ 10 mil per last year and is projected to have a 4.33 ERA this year.   PASS !!!!
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:06 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Any ideas why this guy is still a free agent?!?!?!


    TIME TO CASH OUT THE Q AND GET HAMMEL B4 THE ROYALS DO


    Yeah, he's 34 years old, made $ 10 mil per last year and is projected to have a 4.33 ERA this year.   PASS !!!!

    You have to field a damn team! 
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:46 am

    alohafri wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Any ideas why this guy is still a free agent?!?!?!


    TIME TO CASH OUT THE Q AND GET HAMMEL B4 THE ROYALS DO


    Yeah, he's 34 years old, made $ 10 mil per last year and is projected to have a 4.33 ERA this year.   PASS !!!!

    You have to field a damn team! 

    I must issue an apology here.  I have failed to realize something quite obvious in all these discussions.  The reason that the Cubs got Kris Bryant in the 2013 draft is that they lost 101 games in 2012 and got the # 2 overall pick in the draft.  Without those 101 losses the Cubs wouldn't have won the 2016 World Series.   They got 101 losses by playing audition-a-prospect or suspect all year long.  They had something like 4 different 1bmen, 6 different 3bmen, 7 different RFers, 4 catchers, etc.   The one exceptiion was David DeJesus who they thought they could maybe flip for prospects later on. That never materialized and fortunately for them DeJesus' shoddy defense cancelled out the couple extra wins that his bat produced. They also got a Lefty pithcher in the 2nd round who they converted to a reliever who put up a 1.25 ERA in the last few months of 2016.

    So the lesson is if you can't make the playoffs, then finish last, damn it.  That way you are  in a position to draft a future superstar the next year.  The NBA caught on to this deliberate tanking by shitty teams and instituted a lottery.  MLB has no lottery.  So the smart rebuilders don't try to make some valient effort to improve their clubs by finding vets who  make them look more respectable.   Audition young longshots - so what if the vast majority fail. The 1 or 2 that make it will help you in the future and the failures help put you in a position to draft the next Kris Bryant.  I will be cheering every Sox loss in 2017 as a great investment in the future !!
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:26 am

    Well I must admit, the above argument does has its legitimate points.


    Now the obvious snide remark would be to point out the White Sox draft history


    Also, the point that was completely ignored is that a guy like Hammel helps keep a kid on the farm which means the dreaded service time clock doesn't start ticking.  If all we care about is the future, them having control over these kids until 2022 is better than 2021.


    PS, too bad this board didn't have an English teacher to correct Roger on the proper usage of the word audition
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:37 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Well I must admit, the above argument does has its legitimate points.


    Now the obvious snide remark would be to point out the White Sox draft history


    Also, the point that was completely ignored is that a guy like Hammel helps keep a kid on the farm which means the dreaded service time clock doesn't start ticking.  If all we care about is the future, them having control over these kids until 2022 is better than 2021.


    PS, too bad this board didn't have an English teacher to correct Roger on the proper usage of the word audition

    I'm assuming you are talking about me. I find nothing wrong with his use of the word "audition".
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:47 am

    of course you don't


    but don't worry, I'm still buying lunch


    And just to let you know, I'm turning down free Portillos in the office for the pleasure of your company


    It certainly isn't the Subway swill
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:38 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Well I must admit, the above argument does has its legitimate points.
    Now the obvious snide remark would be to point out the White Sox draft history..
    Also, the point that was completely ignored is that a guy like Hammel helps keep a kid on the farm which means the dreaded service time clock doesn't start ticking.  If all we care about is the future, them having control over these kids until 2022 is better than 2021.
    PS, too bad this board didn't have an English teacher to correct Roger on the proper usage of the word audition

    If the Sox can't take advantage of the high draft picks they get, then God help them because there will be no escape from permanent mediocrity.
    As to Hammel, delaying a Gioloto callup to June tacks another year onto his service clock.  One thing that a veteran pitcher who eats innings can do is save bullpen arms (some of which may be younger) from wear/tear.  Shields and Gonzalez can do that too. Spending what it will take to get Hammel for the purpose of saving bullpen and/or flipping him at midseason probably isn't worth it. 
    As to Shields, however, since Sox are already stuck paying him no matter what, make him earn his keep and eat innings.  Even when he takes one of his usual poundings in the 3rd inning, don't let him off the hook. Trot him out in the 4th and 5th or even 6th if he can make it that long.  His job is simple now - save younger guys arms from more wear and tear.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:51 pm

    Roger


    Hammel only makes sense if Quintana gets traded.


    And we both agree that now just might be the Q's peak value.


    And again, I am suggesting low ball offers to quality vets who just happen to be available 2 weeks b4 spring training.  I'm not get into bidding wars.


    The White Sox can afford to play the chicken game because they are getting hit by the truck in 2017 regardless.


    Hammel and Wieters and lets throw in a guy like Fister, are facing ZERO dollars if they don't back off their over priced demands
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Nomads44 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:34 am

    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Well I must admit, the above argument does has its legitimate points.


    Now the obvious snide remark would be to point out the White Sox draft history


    Also, the point that was completely ignored is that a guy like Hammel helps keep a kid on the farm which means the dreaded service time clock doesn't start ticking.  If all we care about is the future, them having control over these kids until 2022 is better than 2021.


    PS, too bad this board didn't have an English teacher to correct Roger on the proper usage of the word audition

    I'm assuming you are talking about me. I find nothing wrong with his use of the word "audition".
    Looks correct to me, too. 

    Audition definition, a trial hearing given to a singer, actor, or other performer to test suitability for employment, professional training or competition, etc.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:38 am

    Well Jim, with all due respect, you are another person missing the big picture


    I hope you people realize that there are different types of auditions.  You can have a closed audition or an open audition.  what roger is suggesting for the White Sox catcher position is synomous with a church choir auditioning for lead singer at the local tavern on karyoke night.


    What has gotten the KARK so pig biting mad is that instead of dealing with the specifics of the situation, we have ran off on this abstract tangent that is totally not an elephant.


    If Roger were to use is SABR skills on the 6 catcher in the White Sox camp, he'd quickly see that 3 of them have no MLB value.  I find it very frustrating that Roger, who typically lives and breathes stats, is now effectively saying that we should bother in this case.


    Back to the specifics.  3 of 6 have no MLB talent according to their stats.  a 4th, is clearly not ready in 2017.  That leaves 2 catchers, both clearly inferior to Wieters today.  Only one has a chance to be better tommorrow.


    So the logical thing to do, assuming Wieters would accept say $5mil with an option, is to let Soto honor his minor league contract and play both Wieters and Narvaez because their should be enough at bats for both.


    Let me also add that its a false assumption that Wieters would just be here a year.  He has a better chance of bouncing back than Gonzalez or Pena or Smith do of learning how to hit.  No reason Wieters can't become the perfect stop gap between today and when Collins is ready full time.


    Let me also say that its false logic to claim losing is good for rebuilding.  Now obviously you are going to lose.  You don't trade Chris Sale and expect to win more.  But this idea to maximize losses is based on false logic.  You can't play for the #1 draft pick.  Besides, how often is #1 the best?  Frank Thomas was #7.


    Again, a rebuilding team is supposed to maximize future value.  The KARK proudly proclaims that Matt Wieters has more future value than any White Sox catcher not named Collins.  Can anybody here provide a reasonable counter argument?


    XOXOXOX
    THE KARK
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:43 am

    AND ANOTHER THING.

    I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD ALWAYS IMPROVE WHENEVER AND WHEREVER POSSIBLE

    THIS IS NOT DEC 1 AND I AIN'T CLAIMING GUYS LIKE WIETERS AND HAMMEL CAN LEAD US TO THE PROMISE LAND

    IT IS FEB 3RD AND I SEE QUALITY PLAYERS THAT CAN HELP THE CLUB WITH ZERO HINDERANCE TO THE REBUILDING PROCESS.

    CONSIDERING THAT IT TAKES CHICAGO BASEBALL TEAMS CENTURIES TO WIN WORLD SERIES, I DON'T BUY THIS NOTION A TEAM CAN SELECTIVELY TARGET A YEAR TO START WINNING.

    PLUS IT MAKES SENSE TO ALWAYS LEAVING A BOTTLE OPEN IN CASE SOME LIGHTNING STRIKES BY
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:44 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Well Jim, with all due respect, you are another person missing the big picture
    What has gotten the KARK so pig biting mad is that instead of dealing with the specifics of the situation, we have ran off on this abstract tangent that is totally not an elephant.
    If Roger were to use is SABR skills on the 6 catcher in the White Sox camp, he'd quickly see that 3 of them have no MLB value.  I find it very frustrating that Roger, who typically lives and breathes stats, is now effectively saying that we should bother in this case.
    Back to the specifics.  3 of 6 have no MLB talent according to their stats.  a 4th, is clearly not ready in 2017.  That leaves 2 catchers, both clearly inferior to Wieters today.  Only one has a chance to be better tommorrow.


    So the logical thing to do, assuming Wieters would accept say $5mil with an option, is to let Soto honor his minor league contract and play both Wieters and Narvaez because their should be enough at bats for both.


    Let me also add that its a false assumption that Wieters would just be here a year.  He has a better chance of bouncing back than Gonzalez or Pena or Smith do of learning how to hit.  No reason Wieters can't become the perfect stop gap between today and when Collins is ready full time.


    Let me also say that its false logic to claim losing is good for rebuilding.  Now obviously you are going to lose.  You don't trade Chris Sale and expect to win more.  But this idea to maximize losses is based on false logic.  You can't play for the #1 draft pick.  Besides, how often is #1 the best?  Frank Thomas was #7.


    Again, a rebuilding team is supposed to maximize future value.  The KARK proudly proclaims that Matt Wieters has more future value than any White Sox catcher not named Collins.  Can anybody here provide a reasonable counter argument?


    XOXOXOX
    THE KARK

    I just don't get this obsession about who wears the face mask for 2017 Sox.  Of course Wieters is better than the bunch of them, but what good does that do ?   This is a team that needs to be thinking about who they will put on the field in 2019 and beyond. 
    Unless Sox offer a 31 year old Wieters a 3-4 year deal he's not part of that future.  Why would the Sox want to do something like that with their recent history of multi-year deals for guys in their early-mid 30's  (Dunn, LaRoche, Shields) ?  Wieters was having throwing problems and his bat dropped off in 2nd half of last year. So the signs he may be in his decline phase, at least as a Catcher, are already there.   So what "future value" Wieters is supposed to hold for the Sox. ?

     You can't play for the #1 draft pick.  Besides, how often is #1 the best?  Frank Thomas was #7.>>
    MLB still allows you to play (ie.tank) for the # 1 draft pick, and by trading Sale and Eaton who accounted for 11 WAR last year the Sox have said they're willing to be a 95+ game loser this year.  By loading up with likes of Hammel, Fister, Weiters, what's the point in playing for 72 wins when all you get for that is a penalty by dropping a couple slots in the 2018 draft ?
    Two reasons why you want the # 1 draft pick if you're the Sox.
    1st - Your "stud quotient" is way, way better with # 1 pick.  In last 10 years the # 1 picks have been: David Price, Steven Strasberg, Bryce Harper, Gerrit Cole, Carlos Correa, and Dansby Swanson.  # 2 pick studs - Kris Bryant, Bryan Buxton, Alex Bregman # 3 pick studs -Manny Machado, Evan Longoria     # 4 pick studs - none  # 5 pick studs -Buster Posey
    2nd - Basically with improved information and scouting techinques in last 4-5 years, you don't see the FRank Thomases and Mike Trouts getting missed in the first 5 picks so much.   # 1 pick in particular has become almost a no-brainer.  With Sox's history of drafting hitters, they need a no-brainer pick.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:30 am

    I just don't get this obsession about who wears the face mask for 2017 Sox.




    THAT'S HOW MUCH I CARE!!!!
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by alohafri on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:04 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:I just don't get this obsession about who wears the face mask for 2017 Sox.




    THAT'S HOW MUCH I CARE!!!!

    Yet you don't seem to care who plays right field. Maybe Alejandro DeAza is available.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:41 am

    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:I just don't get this obsession about who wears the face mask for 2017 Sox.




    THAT'S HOW MUCH I CARE!!!!

    Yet you don't seem to care who plays right field. Maybe Alejandro DeAza is available.


    RYMER LIARIANO

    BUT THANKS FOR THE SNIDE REMARK ROB
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:21 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:
    alohafri wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:I just don't get this obsession about who wears the face mask for 2017 Sox.




    THAT'S HOW MUCH I CARE!!!!

    Yet you don't seem to care who plays right field. Maybe Alejandro DeAza is available.


    RYMER LIARIANO

    BUT THANKS FOR THE SNIDE REMARK ROB

    Let's not forget the powerful Sox CFers - Tilson and Bourjeous.  Or the fearsome DH Garcia...Or the potent 2b combo of Saladino/Lawrie. Lawrie was ranked the 33rd best 2bman last year.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:44 pm

    Liriano was once a top 100 prospect if I am not mistaken

    Tillson was a consistent top 10 in the Cards org

    Now these are the type of guys you audition
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:48 pm

    As for Laurie, he's just a place holder until until Moncadas free agent year switches from 2021 to 2022.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:54 pm

    As for Garcia, I pray he is cut.  Never should have been tendered
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Nomads44 on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:55 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Liriano was once a top 100 prospect if I am not mistaken

    Tillson was a consistent top 10 in the Cards org

    Now these are the type of guys you audition

    Tilson made the Cards' top ten once a couple years ago, coming in at #9.  Liriano was a huge flop, but indeed was #49 baseball wide in 2012.  They are each worth fliers, but all this is common sense.  Don't know why you are stressing your points so much.  If Wieters is CHEAP, why not, but he is an older stopgap.  If nothing else, I would hope for a "Wieters' type equivalent" in return from one of the trades yet to be made.  If it can be a strong prospect C, fine, but if it is a major league ready medium prospect, that might suffice until Collins is ready.  Not arguing against Wieters unless it is a high cost, just really confused by your pressing your point as if he is the "must have" answer.  Narvaez and Soto might prove enough for this season.  Neither will be an all star, but we don't need an all star.  We just need to put one that can handle the position behind the plate.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:18 am

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Liriano was once a top 100 prospect if I am not mistaken

    Tillson was a consistent top 10 in the Cards org

    Now these are the type of guys you audition

    Of course the Sox play these guys. But neither would be considered as starter-worthy on a contending club.    With Cabrera also departing in 2017 (hopefully in a midseason trade) Sox need to put getting some OFers as their top priority because I see no one at the major league or minor league level that looks like a starting OFer at any spot come 2019.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by Deplorable Mark on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:04 pm

    Did Liriano flop or get hurt

    I believe it was the latter

    Big difference

    As for why I keep pushing the subject, what else White Sox related is there to talk about?

    You people who be giving me credit for making the White Sox worth discussing again
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by sox55 on Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:51 pm

    Deplorable Mark wrote:Did Liriano flop or get hurt

    I believe it was the latter

    Big difference

    As for why I keep pushing the subject, what else White Sox related is there to talk about?

    You people who be giving me credit for making the White Sox worth discussing again

    NO trades PRIOR to Spring Training means that WIN NOW (on the very cheap) is still the MO of this organIzation.
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    Re: Jason Hammel

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:25 pm

    sox55 wrote:
    Deplorable Mark wrote:Did Liriano flop or get hurt

    I believe it was the latter

    Big difference

    As for why I keep pushing the subject, what else White Sox related is there to talk about?

    You people who be giving me credit for making the White Sox worth discussing again

    NO trades PRIOR to Spring Training means that WIN NOW (on the very cheap) is still the MO of this organIzation.

    In theory the trades of Sale and Eaton signal rebuild..  As do pickups of cheap FA 's like Liriano, Bourjouis, Soto , etc. to have some stopgaps to put in the field in 2017...As also does the shunning (at least so far) of expensive FA's and even semi-expensive FA's like Wieters, Napoli, Hammel, etc. Holland pickup was a bit win-now but  that was a prelude to a Quintana trade so the Sox could fill Q's spot and prevent premature callups of Gioloto, Kopech and also to save some bullpen arms.  Plus maybe have a guy to flip in trade at midseason. 
    To your point though, John, it would have been more encouraging to see a bigger house cleaning that exited Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Lawrie and of course trading Quintana.  Robertson and Cabrera's salaries and mediocrity meant little interest.  Even at midseason Sox probably won't get much in the way of prospects for them.  Frazier and Lawrie might net something though.. While understandably the Sox want to get a big return for Quintana, the clock is ticking and I only see more risk the longer it goes.  Q could get hurt, start to suck and then the chance is gone.
    So, yeah, they need to make some more trades NOW and get something back.   Hahn is trying but he needs to be more realistic.

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