Nomadsfest Sox Fans

A forum for the old AOL board Sox fans and others.


    Danks

    Share
    avatar
    alohafri
    Pope Malort I

    Posts : 7089
    Join date : 2009-04-03
    Age : 50
    Location : Southwest Suburbs

    Danks

    Post by alohafri on Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:37 pm

    Is it too early to call Danks the worst pitcher in the majors?

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Danks

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:31 pm

    alohafri wrote:Is it too early to call Danks the worst pitcher in the majors?

    Well, I predicted that Danks would likely suck tonight.

    I'm also predicting that when John moves to the Phoenix area around the first of June that it's going to be hot and dry.

    And I'm now going to go way out on the limb by predicting that the big loser in the Presidential election in November will be the American people.
    avatar
    alohafri
    Pope Malort I

    Posts : 7089
    Join date : 2009-04-03
    Age : 50
    Location : Southwest Suburbs

    Re: Danks

    Post by alohafri on Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:01 am

    I thought I saw somewhere that in his last 12 decisions that Danks is 1-11. Tenure or no tenure, if I had that kind of record, I'd be out on my ass.
    avatar
    Cream1953
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 6166
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 63
    Location : Elkhart, IN.

    Re: Danks

    Post by Cream1953 on Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:29 am

    The guy's like an emotional vampire. Whatever momentum or good vibe the team might have, he sucks it right out of them when he steps out onto the field. As if it weren't bad enough playing in Baltimore where the team always seems to get their ass handed to them.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:58 am

    alohafri wrote:I thought I saw somewhere that in his last 12 decisions that Danks is 1-11. Tenure or no tenure, if I had that kind of record, I'd be out on my ass.

    While that stat is technically true, it's not the best or fairest way to indict Danks.  In 5 of those 11 losses, he was decent (only 2-3 runs allowed) but took the "L" because the Sox scored 0-2 runs. Also omitted in that same  time period were two no-decisions when he pitched very well, the Sox won but he wasn't credited with the "W".   In the 14 games covered in the period of "his last 12 decisions",  Danks had 7 quality starts,  6 poor ones and 1 so-so (5 IP/3 ER). 
    None of this is to say he belongs in the rotation, because this year he's been a disaster. His ERA is 7.25, the league is hitting .322 against him, and he's giving up nearly 2 HR's every 9 IP.  In 3 of his 4 starts, he's allowed 5 runs + .   All this after Navarro's revelation about his supposedly "tipping pitches." which might have provided some hope for at least modest improvement.  Now that hope is gone.  There is no reasonable basis to believe Danks can pitch well in more than 20-30% of his starts, which is just unacceptable.  Time to look at Jacob Turner, who is pitching damn well in Charlotte so far.  He may not be the answer, but it's clear Danks isn't either.
    avatar
    jaywit
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 3601
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 57
    Location : Spokane, WA

    Re: Danks

    Post by jaywit on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:02 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:I thought I saw somewhere that in his last 12 decisions that Danks is 1-11. Tenure or no tenure, if I had that kind of record, I'd be out on my ass.

      All this after Navarro's revelation about his supposedly "tipping pitches." which might have provided some hope for at least modest improvement.  Now that hope is gone.  

    The hope was never there.  That was ridiculous from the get-go.
    avatar
    alohafri
    Pope Malort I

    Posts : 7089
    Join date : 2009-04-03
    Age : 50
    Location : Southwest Suburbs

    Re: Danks

    Post by alohafri on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:06 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:I thought I saw somewhere that in his last 12 decisions that Danks is 1-11. Tenure or no tenure, if I had that kind of record, I'd be out on my ass.

    While that stat is technically true, it's not the best or fairest way to indict Danks.  In 5 of those 11 losses, he was decent (only 2-3 runs allowed) but took the "L" because the Sox scored 0-2 runs. Also omitted in that same  time period were two no-decisions when he pitched very well, the Sox won but he wasn't credited with the "W".   In the 14 games covered in the period of "his last 12 decisions",  Danks had 7 quality starts,  6 poor ones and 1 so-so (5 IP/3 ER). 
    None of this is to say he belongs in the rotation, because this year he's been a disaster. His ERA is 7.25, the league is hitting .322 against him, and he's giving up nearly 2 HR's every 9 IP.  In 3 of his 4 starts, he's allowed 5 runs + .   All this after Navarro's revelation about his supposedly "tipping pitches." which might have provided some hope for at least modest improvement.  Now that hope is gone.  There is no reasonable basis to believe Danks can pitch well in more than 20-30% of his starts, which is just unacceptable.  Time to look at Jacob Turner, who is pitching damn well in Charlotte so far.  He may not be the answer, but it's clear Danks isn't either.

    Good thing I red to the end. I was going to suggest that Mrs. Danks hijacked your screen name!
    avatar
    Cream1953
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 6166
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 63
    Location : Elkhart, IN.

    Re: Danks

    Post by Cream1953 on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:41 pm

    Roger has always been a fan and Danks apologist. lol
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:47 pm

    Cream1953 wrote: Roger has always been a fan and Danks apologist. lol
    Very Happy   Not anymore.

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Danks

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:01 pm

    The definition of dank is dismal.  And the plural of dank is ...... affraid

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Danks

    Post by Guest on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:15 pm

    THEY SHOULD SEE IF DANKS CAN CLOSE A GAME WHILE ROBERTSON IS ON BEREAVEMENT LEAVE
    avatar
    Soxillinirob
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 7299
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 51
    Location : St. Charles, IL

    Re: Danks

    Post by Soxillinirob on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:30 pm

    tHe SicKo FANt wrote:THEY SHOULD SEE IF DANKS CAN CLOSE A GAME WHILE ROBERTSON IS ON BEREAVEMENT LEAVE

    Ummm, no dank you.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:01 pm

    jaywit wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:I thought I saw somewhere that in his last 12 decisions that Danks is 1-11. Tenure or no tenure, if I had that kind of record, I'd be out on my ass.

      All this after Navarro's revelation about his supposedly "tipping pitches." which might have provided some hope for at least modest improvement.  Now that hope is gone.  

    The hope was never there.  That was ridiculous from the get-go.



    I don't think this pitch-tipping thing was a complete throwaway or else Navarro wouldn't have brought it up.  Navarro was with Toronto who pounded Danks both times he faced them.  Of course, other teams pounded Danks too notably in the AL Central.   Danks' success came against teams least familiar with him - all 3 NL opponents he faced.  Plus he did better against teams seeing him for the first time last year (Angels, A's, Astros).    Some pitchers like Mariano Rivera can get away with opponents knowing what he was going throw.  Danks can't.  Deception is his only edge and when he loses that, he's toast.

    That said, Danks has lost another 2 mph off his fastball this year and now it's down 87 mph -perfect hitting speed..  So that loss of velocity trumps any small edge he might have gained by learning about the pitch-tipping thing.


    .
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:05 pm

    tHe SicKo FANt wrote:THEY SHOULD SEE IF DANKS CAN CLOSE A GAME WHILE ROBERTSON IS ON BEREAVEMENT LEAVE


    They should close the door of the clubhouse when Danks tries to enter.
    avatar
    jaywit
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 3601
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 57
    Location : Spokane, WA

    Re: Danks

    Post by jaywit on Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:42 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    jaywit wrote:
    rmapasad wrote:
    alohafri wrote:I thought I saw somewhere that in his last 12 decisions that Danks is 1-11. Tenure or no tenure, if I had that kind of record, I'd be out on my ass.

      All this after Navarro's revelation about his supposedly "tipping pitches." which might have provided some hope for at least modest improvement.  Now that hope is gone.  

    The hope was never there.  That was ridiculous from the get-go.



    I don't think this pitch-tipping thing was a complete throwaway or else Navarro wouldn't have brought it up.  Navarro was with Toronto who pounded Danks both times he faced them.  Of course, other teams pounded Danks too notably in the AL Central.   Danks' success came against teams least familiar with him - all 3 NL opponents he faced.  Plus he did better against teams seeing him for the first time last year (Angels, A's, Astros).    Some pitchers like Mariano Rivera can get away with opponents knowing what he was going throw.  Danks can't.  Deception is his only edge and when he loses that, he's toast.

    That said, Danks has lost another 2 mph off his fastball this year and now it's down 87 mph -perfect hitting speed..  So that loss of velocity trumps any small edge he might have gained by learning about the pitch-tipping thing.


    .

    I'm willing to concede maybe one guy or two guys could pick something up.  But enough guys are picking it up to change him from a good pitcher to a bad pitcher?  And our catchers and pitching coach who study every move they make haven't picked it up?  Being a stats guy, what are the statistical odds for that?

    Also, I'm not convinced that Navarro was talking more about what he really saw compared to what he thought he saw.  Maybe he was just lucky with Danks.  Maybe Navarro was just talking out of his ass.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:30 pm





    I don't think this pitch-tipping thing was a complete throwaway or else Navarro wouldn't have brought it up.  Navarro was with Toronto who pounded Danks both times he faced . 

    .

    I'm willing to concede maybe one guy or two guys could pick something up.  But enough guys are picking it up to change him from a good pitcher to a bad pitcher?  And our catchers and pitching coach who study every move they make haven't picked it up?  Being a stats guy, what are the statistical odds for that?

    Also, I'm not convinced that Navarro was talking more about what he really saw compared to what he thought he saw.  Maybe he was just lucky with Danks.  Maybe Navarro was just talking out of his ass.

    I also find it hard to believe that one guy on a rival team would see Danks tip pitches but that would somehow go unnoticed by the Sox's pitching coaches and/or catchers who see him all the time.    I think that maybe what Navarro was seeing was pattern tendencies (using certain type of pitches in certain counts to certain type hitters).  Those tendencies are things certain guys pick up on, they'll pass it on and it will spread like wildfire through their whole team.  Some clubs clearly seem to have Dank's number, mainly the Twins who've bashed him in every one of his last 5 starts. Tampa, the Indians, Red Sox. Blue Jays, Mariners and lately the Tigers seem to also. OTOH, Danks has just been fine v. Angels, A's and Yankees and he's mowed down all 7 NL teams he's faced, most of whom were the cream of the crop (SF, LA, SL, Pitt).   Also noticed the tendency for teams to do better v. Danks the more times they see him.
    Danks can survive only be keeping  hitters guessing because he doesn't have the stuff to put them away.  So if some teams are wise to his patterns they'll pummel him harder and teams that don't have that insight (like the NL teams he's faced) might not.   Unfortunately, 90% of the teams he faces in a given year are AL teams so he can only benefit from unfamiliarity very rarely. 
    Last but not least, even if he allegedly solved the "tipping pitch" or "predictable patterns" problems, losing 2 mph on his average FB this year wipes all the benefit of that out and then some.  At 88-90 mph he can sneak a few fastballs past guys who are looking breaking ball.  At 86-87 mph hitters have more time to react to the FB even if they're looking breaking ball.  Plus once a pitcher narrows the velocity gap between FB and changeup, his changeup becomes less effective.  Unless Danks corrects mechanics to gain more velocity, he is finished, IMO.
    avatar
    TeleFrank
    Silent Hot Dog Vendor

    Posts : 1045
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Portage Park

    Re: Danks

    Post by TeleFrank on Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:58 am

    Guys, you can debate Mr. Danks all you want but all you really need to write is some variation of John Danks Sucks. 


    Now reality check. His big stupid contract means the Sox are stuck with him and I would predict that unless Danks pulls out a gun and runs thru a junior high killing kids the Sox will not eat his contract. Of course if you're a religious type maybe prayer could be employed. 

    frank bonifacic
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2469
    Join date : 2009-04-05

    Re: Danks

    Post by frank bonifacic on Sat Apr 30, 2016 11:43 am

    TeleFrank wrote:Guys, you can debate Mr. Danks all you want but all you really need to write is some variation of John Danks Sucks. 


    Now reality check. His big stupid contract means the Sox are stuck with him and I would predict that unless Danks pulls out a gun and runs thru a junior high killing kids the Sox will not eat his contract. Of course if you're a religious type maybe prayer could be employed. 
    You will all be happy to know that they announced on the Score that Danks WILL make his next start on Wednesday
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:08 pm

    TeleFrank wrote:Guys, you can debate Mr. Danks all you want but all you really need to write is some variation of John Danks Sucks. 


    Now reality check. His big stupid contract means the Sox are stuck with him and I would predict that unless Danks pulls out a gun and runs thru a junior high killing kids the Sox will not eat his contract. Of course if you're a religious type maybe prayer could be employed. 

    Frank, in mid-2014, after Danks was coming off a good 6 week stretch, I thought he might be showing signs of becoming a useful 3rd/4th starter. That hope quickly died. He's been no more than an overpaid 5th starter these last few years. In 2014-2015 it didn't matter that he had a job because of his salary. He wasn't blocking anybody else in the system and the team was shitty no matter what he did.

    Now it matters.  Danks' velocity has dropped off and he's worse than ever. Sox are legit contenders and it's idiotic to sacrifice games trying to eek the remains of Danks' salary.  Sox offense is still not that great. If they're going to win, pitching is the key and they can't afford bums like Danks in the rotation, plain and simple. 

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Danks

    Post by Guest on Sat Apr 30, 2016 12:35 pm

    Unless Danks corrects mechanics to gain more velocity, he is finished, IMO.




    Stat dude, your opinion is about 18 months to 2 yrs later than most on this board who have watched this bozo since his shoulder injury. He has NEVER come back, and unlike your last post, there was never a "thought he might be showing signs of becoming a useful 3rd/4th starter".  Maybe YOU thought that, none of us held out a rats ass hair degree of hope.  No means, modes, averages, etc etc etc could hide the fact that he did not come back post shoulder op.
    avatar
    Cream1953
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 6166
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 63
    Location : Elkhart, IN.

    Re: Danks

    Post by Cream1953 on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:31 pm

    Besides, come back from what????? He was never that fucking good to begin with. Certainly not good enough to warrant the kind of money they threw at him. Kenny Williams has committed some colossal mind-melting fuck ups during his tenure but this whole thing with Danks is king of the mountain.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:55 pm

    Chi-kid wrote:Unless Danks corrects mechanics to gain more velocity, he is finished, IMO.




    Stat dude, your opinion is about 18 months to 2 yrs later than most on this board who have watched this bozo since his shoulder injury. He has NEVER come back, and unlike your last post, there was never a "thought he might be showing signs of becoming a useful 3rd/4th starter".  Maybe YOU thought that, none of us held out a rats ass hair degree of hope.  No means, modes, averages, etc etc etc could hide the fact that he did not come back post shoulder op.


    Since Danks wasn't a true power thrower even in his heyday, I thought he could switch gears into finesse post-injury but it would take a while. So when he ran off that good two month stretch in 2014, it looked like a possible sign he was finally learning how to adapt. But he wasn't obviously.   
    Remember seeing his game v. Dodgers in person during that good stretch, and he looked like a finesse guy in good command of his pitches.  Different from the struggling nibbler I saw on TV in 2013- earlier 2014.    
    I'm curious to know what people who watched him more frequently saw that convinced them that his 10 game stretch right before AS game in 2014 was just a mirage.  It was blatantly obvious that his stuff wasn't that terrific and he struggled to put hitters away.  But Buehrle survived quite well with mediocre stuff and not being able to put away hitters, as have other pitchers.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:11 pm

    Cream1953 wrote:Besides, come back from what????? He was never that fucking good to begin with. Certainly not good enough to warrant the kind of money they threw at him. Kenny Williams has committed some colossal mind-melting fuck ups during his tenure but this whole thing with Danks is king of the mountain.


    Danks was a pretty damn good pitcher from 2008-2010.  He had one of the 10 best ERA's of all American League starters, and actually better than Buehrle during that period.  The wheels started to come off some in 2011, but Kenny didn't take enough notice of that.  He panicked when Buehrle left and signed Danks to the big contract. Worst part was that Danks still had one more year to go before free agency so the extension was unnecessary. Had he waited until after 2012, when Danks got injured, that contract would never have happened.

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Danks

    Post by Guest on Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:12 pm

    I'm curious to know what people who watched him more frequently saw that convinced them that his 10 game stretch right before AS game in 2014 was just a mirage.  It was blatantly obvious that his stuff wasn't that terrific and he struggled to put hitters away.  But Buehrle survived quite well with mediocre stuff and not being able to put away hitters, as have other pitchers.


    Just speaking for myself, but Danks, even when going well, looked like someone who any second was going to get lit up. Whether it was the 100 pitches by the 5th inning, or the shots that would be caught, or the games where time after time it looked like every inning there were 2 men on base. Unlike Buehrle, who game after game looked to be in command and you just knew this game was in the bag, Danks you would just wait to implode. Sometimes he wouldn't, but there never was a game, unlike with Buehrle, where you felt the game was in hand.

    I do agree with you that when he was healthy, before the shoulder surgery, he was a pretty good looking young pitcher, and if he had stayed health, he might have easily been a 12-15 win pitcher per year. I don't think Williams was buffaloed by Danks. I think he and the Sox made a conscious decision that it was time to let Buehrle go (never made him an offer remember) and concentrate on the long term plan for the future, which included Danks ...and then he got hurt. Danks may have earned his money, hell, even might have been a "bargain", but once his shoulder went, that was it  You said it yourself, Danks was either a 2 run or 8 run a game pitcher. But even when watching him during his 2 run game, he looked like an 8 run pitcher.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2325
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Danks

    Post by rmapasad on Mon May 02, 2016 1:00 pm

    (never made him an offer remember) and concentrate on the long term plan for the future, which included Danks ...and then he got hurt. Danks may have earned his money, hell, even might have been a "bargain", but once his shoulder went, that was it  You said it yourself, Danks was either a 2 run or 8 run a game pitcher. But even when watching him during his 2 run game, he looked like an 8 run pitcher.

    Final theory on Danks.  It takes extra work, IMO, to succeed as a finesse pitcher.  Maddux studied hitters, was meticulous about his routines, etc.   Not saying Danks jaked it after his injury.  He probably put in as much work as before.  But that's the point.  He may have needed to put more in to be successful with diminished velocity.   But with the comfort of a 5 year deal behind him, why bust his ass or go the extra mile t ?  Bartolo Colon re-invented himself from power pitcher to finesse.  But he never had the benefit of a contract longer than 2 years and most times he was working off 1 year deals.  That keeps a guy on his toes.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Danks

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Jul 22, 2017 9:53 am