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    The Flyin' Hawaiian?

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    MGJOHNSON
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:26 am

    Chi-kid wrote:'m a little surprised that spring training camps are opening up and there are still a fair number of decent unsigned free agents.




    No idea what they are asking for but it's possible they are pricing themselves out of the market. I agree in Austin Jackson. Prob better than either of the sox corners

    Austin Jackson would be better defensively than Melky Cabrera or Avi Garcia.  Offensively, Melky is better than Jackson, and Garcia still has upside.  I've never been a big fan of Jackson's.  To me, he's a guy who can fill an outfield position until someone better comes along; and when he's out there, you hope that "that someone" comes along very soon.  Jackson is nothing exceptional.  He's kind of bland like being the John Kasich of baseball.  Just my opinion...
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:14 pm

    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    Austin Jackson would be better defensively than Melky Cabrera or Avi Garcia.  Offensively, Melky is better than Jackson, and Garcia still has upside.  I've never been a big fan of Jackson's.  To me, he's a guy who can fill an outfield position until someone better comes along; and when he's out there, you hope that "that someone" comes along very soon.  Jackson is nothing exceptional.  He's kind of bland like being the John Kasich of baseball.  Just my opinion...

    Agreed, Jackson is nothing special which is why he's only worth $ 5-6 million a year.  But the Sox could stand for a little mediocrity and blandness instead of the piss-poorness they got from RF and DH last year.  
    How many times do the Sox have to be fooled about the propaganda of someone's upside (Beckham, Viciedo, now Garcia) even though all the evidence mounts up ?  Garcia can't play defense and has never understood the difference between a ball and a strike.  These are not problems that just dissolve and go away.
     I say put Jackson in RF, get a .260 BA with 8-10 HR's, a .325 OBP, 15-20 SB's and above average defense.  Plus insurance in case Melky goes down. Then put Garcia and LaRoche in a DH platoon.  By keeping Garcia away from RHed pitchers and LaRoche away from LHers, the DH spot could at least go from an F+ to a C-.

     

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by jaywit on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:30 pm

    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    Chi-kid wrote:'m a little surprised that spring training camps are opening up and there are still a fair number of decent unsigned free agents.




    No idea what they are asking for but it's possible they are pricing themselves out of the market. I agree in Austin Jackson. Prob better than either of the sox corners

    Austin Jackson would be better defensively than Melky Cabrera or Avi Garcia.  Offensively, Melky is better than Jackson, and Garcia still has upside.  I've never been a big fan of Jackson's.  To me, he's a guy who can fill an outfield position until someone better comes along; and when he's out there, you hope that "that someone" comes along very soon.  Jackson is nothing exceptional.  He's kind of bland like being the John Kasich of baseball.  Just my opinion...
    It was a happy day in the Pac NW when Jackson was dealt.  Disappointing tenure in Seattle.  Hope the Sox pass on him, too.

    Hey, Kasich ain't bland, he's presidential and not about to jump into the fray with the 3 stooges...and he kinda has that Dean Wormer look, and that's not bland.  I can just see him say, "Put Neidermeyer on it. He's a sneaky little shit just like you."
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:50 pm



    No idea what they are asking for but it's possible they are pricing themselves out of the market. I agree in Austin Jackson. Prob better than either of the sox corners

    Austin Jackson would be better defensively than Melky Cabrera or Avi Garcia.  Offensively, Melky is better than Jackson, and Garcia still has upside.  I've never been a big fan of Jackson's.  To me, he's a guy who can fill an outfield position until someone better comes along; and when he's out there, you hope that "that someone" comes along very soon.  Jackson is nothing exceptional.  He's kind of bland like being the John Kasich of baseball.  Just my opinion...
    It was a happy day in the Pac NW when Jackson was dealt.  Disappointing tenure in Seattle.  Hope the Sox pass on him, too.

    Hey, Kasich ain't bland, he's presidential and not about to jump into the fray with the 3 stooges...and he kinda has that Dean Wormer look, and that's not bland.  I can just see him say, "Put Neidermeyer on it. He's a sneaky little shit just like you.

    It's not that Jackson is that good - he isn't.  It's that Garcia is that bad.  Jackson was terrible the second half of 2014 when he first was traded to the M's but thanks to decent defense last year he bounced back to a 2.3 WAR versus -1.1 for Garcia.  When a team can possibly improve itself by 3 wins by closing up a gaping hole with a semblance of semi-adequacy that's a move they should consider, particularly if 3 wins is a difference between making or missing the playoffs.

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:15 pm

    rmapasad wrote:


    No idea what they are asking for but it's possible they are pricing themselves out of the market. I agree in Austin Jackson. Prob better than either of the sox corners

    Austin Jackson would be better defensively than Melky Cabrera or Avi Garcia.  Offensively, Melky is better than Jackson, and Garcia still has upside.  I've never been a big fan of Jackson's.  To me, he's a guy who can fill an outfield position until someone better comes along; and when he's out there, you hope that "that someone" comes along very soon.  Jackson is nothing exceptional.  He's kind of bland like being the John Kasich of baseball.  Just my opinion...
    It was a happy day in the Pac NW when Jackson was dealt.  Disappointing tenure in Seattle.  Hope the Sox pass on him, too.

    Hey, Kasich ain't bland, he's presidential and not about to jump into the fray with the 3 stooges...and he kinda has that Dean Wormer look, and that's not bland.  I can just see him say, "Put Neidermeyer on it. He's a sneaky little shit just like you.

    It's not that Jackson is that good - he isn't.  It's that Garcia is that bad.  Jackson was terrible the second half of 2014 when he first was traded to the M's but thanks to decent defense last year he bounced back to a 2.3 WAR versus -1.1 for Garcia.  When a team can possibly improve itself by 3 wins by closing up a gaping hole with a semblance of semi-adequacy that's a move they should consider, particularly if 3 wins is a difference between making or missing the playoffs.

    Really, Roger, I'd almost sooner go with Alex Rios over Austin Jackson.  Yeah, Rios gets into those lazy hazy days of summer when you would wish that he was gone, but he'll also get into those stretches where he will get his ass in gear and put up some very nice numbers.  Well, that was in years passed.  Old Alex might be too broken down to be productive now even if he wanted to be.

    Anyway, the Sox brass might be out surfing the waves for a Cuban rafter with an outfielder's glove and a decent bat.
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:43 pm

    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    Really, Roger, I'd almost sooner go with Alex Rios over Austin Jackson.  Yeah, Rios gets into those lazy hazy days of summer when you would wish that he was gone, but he'll also get into those stretches where he will get his ass in gear and put up some very nice numbers.  Well, that was in years passed.  Old Alex might be too broken down to be productive now even if he wanted to be.
    Anyway, the Sox brass might be out surfing the waves for a Cuban rafter with an outfielder's glove and a decent bat.
    Rios is finished at this point.  Sure, Jackson has red flags.  It's not good when a guy starts his decline at age 27 as he has.  That said, Jackson was a pretty good player in 2011-2013 (4 -5 WAR). Despite his sagging offense these last two years, his glove and baserunning are still good and he's only 29 years old.  So I think it's worth taking a shot at $ 5-6 mil per that he might put up a 3 WAR again.  If he ends up only at 1 WAR then the perspective is that Garcia and LaRoche, the two guys he'd be taking AB's from, were both negatives last year and I don't see a helluva lot of improvement coming from them.  Even if you believe in Garcia, then have him DH and sit LaRoche more. 

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:28 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    Really, Roger, I'd almost sooner go with Alex Rios over Austin Jackson.  Yeah, Rios gets into those lazy hazy days of summer when you would wish that he was gone, but he'll also get into those stretches where he will get his ass in gear and put up some very nice numbers.  Well, that was in years passed.  Old Alex might be too broken down to be productive now even if he wanted to be.
    Anyway, the Sox brass might be out surfing the waves for a Cuban rafter with an outfielder's glove and a decent bat.
    Rios is finished at this point.  Sure, Jackson has red flags.  It's not good when a guy starts his decline at age 27 as he has.  That said, Jackson was a pretty good player in 2011-2013 (4 -5 WAR). Despite his sagging offense these last two years, his glove and baserunning are still good and he's only 29 years old.  So I think it's worth taking a shot at $ 5-6 mil per that he might put up a 3 WAR again.  If he ends up only at 1 WAR then the perspective is that Garcia and LaRoche, the two guys he'd be taking AB's from, were both negatives last year and I don't see a helluva lot of improvement coming from them.  Even if you believe in Garcia, then have him DH and sit LaRoche more. 

    Oh, I'd love to see LaRoche sit more.  The Sox want a left-handed power hitter in the lineup; and until they are convinced that LaRoche is no longer the player that he once was (which wasn't all that great anyway), they will likely keep rolling him out there.  Just like with Dunn, they are paying LaRoche big money.  KW will want to give LaRoche every chance possible to make good on the investment before having to go and tell Reinsdorf that he screwed up big time again.

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:43 pm

    Roger, you can put your big books like War and Peace aside, at my age it comes down to the following: I would sooner spend my time watching a young player who may have some upside than a never-has-been veteran in decline try to recapture his not-so-greatness.  Life is simply too short to waste time watching the Austin Jacksons and the Adam LaRoches play out their strings.  I would sooner see Avisail Garcia or an overachiever like Jason Coats play.  At least they will pique my interest much more than the never-has-beens.


    Now with Jimmy Rollins, it's a little different.  He's had a very good career; and until last season where he played for the first time with a team other than the Phillies, he was a very exciting player to watch.  He's probably borderline Hall of Fame material.  Another productive year or two and his induction becomes more of a certainty.  I'm looking forward to watching him play and will be pulling for him in his quest for the HOF.  Rollins might be washed up, but they should find that out fairly soon.  And if he is, I'll enjoy watching youngster Tyler Saladino.
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:04 pm

    Roger, you can put your big books like War and Peace aside, at my age it comes down to the following: I would sooner spend my time watching a young player who may have some upside than a never-has-been veteran in decline try to recapture his not-so-greatness.  Life is simply too short to waste time watching the Austin Jacksons and the Adam LaRoches play out their strings.  I would sooner see Avisail Garcia or an overachiever like Jason Coats play.  At least they will pique my interest much more than the never-has-beens.>
    [size=16]Mart, not sure what is so interesting about watching a dunce like Avisail Garcia play bad baseball. He fields poorly, he's a dumb baserunner and can't recognize balls from strikes.  When the best case for a guy playing is that he's only 25 years old and looks good in a baseball uniform, that's not much of a case. This looks like another example of Kenny Williams stubbornly standing behind "his guy".
    At age 29, Jackson shouldn't be finished. I think after 3-4 years in the league, pitchers have the book on how to contain him.  While hitting isn't an asset anymore, it's not awful and when defense and baserunning are considered, he's better than what the Sox have now.   Again, if it's so important for the org to keep milking their "investment" in Garcia, make him the DH and at least get him out of the field.
    [/size]

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by Guest on Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:33 pm

    I'm If the Sox were serious, Ian Desmond would have been signed instead of Rollins 

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:52 pm

    To put it simply, Austin Jackson is a bum!  Regardless of what your WAR says, Roger, I've seen the guy play for too many years.  Granted, he had a few decent years in Detroit but often he was a weak link in Detroit's lineup; Jackson's the guy opposing teams couldn't wait to see come to the plate.  He was worse in Seattle.  At 29, he might rebound, but to what?  He never was anything anyone would want to write home about, except maybe way back when he was a big fish in Steinbrenner's then nearly-deplete Yankee farm system.

    Under your scenario, the Sox sign him to a 2-year contract for $10-12 million.  That means that I'll have to watch that bum play regularly for 2 years!  Dammit!  Making that kind of money in Jerry's World means that he won't be benched or released, and the Sox won't be able to trade him because they'd be paying him more than he's worth.  And with Boras as his agent, the Sox might even have to pay him more!


    To upgrade with an actually good player like Cespedes would have made sense.  Also to take a chance by signing a guy like Victorino for $1 million plus incentives if he makes the team as the Cubs did also makes sense.  But to be stuck with a declining bum for 2 years doesn't.

    In another month when teams are paring down their rosters for the start of the season, the waiver wires are going to be full of the likes of Austin Jackson types.  If the Sox want to give up on Avi Garcia and replace him with an aging stiff, that's the time to do it.


    Last edited by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:01 pm

    Chi-kid wrote:I'm If the Sox were serious, Ian Desmond would have been signed instead of Rollins 

    The Sox are serious, Tim, about saving money. - Seriously cheap!

    One thing, though, if Rollins stinks, they don't have to keep him beyond Spring Training.
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by jaywit on Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:29 am

    MGJOHNSON wrote:To put it simply, Austin Jackson is a bum!  Regardless of what your WAR says, Roger, I've seen the guy play for too many years.  Granted, he had a few decent years in Detroit but often he was a weak link in Detroit's lineup; Jackson's the guy opposing teams couldn't wait to see come to the plate.  He was worse in Seattle.  At 29, he might rebound, but to what?  He never was anything anyone would want to write home about, except maybe way back when he was a big fish in Steinbrenner's then nearly-deplete Yankee farm system.

    Under your scenario, the Sox sign him to a 2-year contract for $10-12 million.  That means that I'll have to watch that bum play regularly for 2 years!  Dammit!  Making that kind of money in Jerry's World means that he won't be benched or released, and the Sox won't be able to trade him because they'd be paying him more than he's worth.  And with Boras as his agent, the Sox might even have to pay him more!


    To upgrade with an actually good player like Cespedes would have made sense.  Also to take a chance by signing a guy like Victorino for $1 million plus incentives if he makes the team as the Cubs did also makes sense.  But to be stuck with a declining bum for 2 years doesn't.

    In another month when teams are paring down their rosters for the start of the season, the waiver wires are going to be full of the likes of Austin Jackson types.  If the Sox want to give up on Avi Garcia and replace him with an aging stiff, that's the time to do it.
    I'd say that when Jackson was booted out of Seattle there were parades of fans in the street but the hundred or so M's fans don't truly qualify for a parade.  But they were happy nonetheless.

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:35 am

    jaywit wrote:I'd say that when Jackson was booted out of Seattle there were parades of fans in the street but the hundred or so M's fans don't truly qualify for a parade.  But they were happy nonetheless.

    Jay, my feelings about Avi Garcia is that if the Sox are going to replace him, do it with a definite upgrade.  I'm not interested in seeing the Sox get stuck with another overpaid bum, especially one with very little upside.

    I'm not ready to throw in the towel on Garcia.  Many over-hyped him.  I could see when the Sox first played him after getting him from the Tigers that he was going to have problems laying off shitty pitches.  There are other young players, like Joc Pederson on the Dodgers and Steve Souza on the Rays, who are having much the same problem.  Are these guys stiffs in the making?  Maybe.  Or perhaps they're future stars.  Their ability to adjust to major league pitching will determine that.  I'm not clairvoyant.  Neither is Roger.  I've seen it go both ways with young players.

    Now back to Garcia, last year was his first full season.  He hit .257 with 13 home runs and 59 RBI's.  That's not bad for a virtual rookie.  He didn't hit the number of homers many people wanted; but given the fact that he was coming back from a horrendous shoulder injury from the season before, he did as well as could be reasonable expected.  As his shoulder strengthens, it's reasonable to expect more power in the future.  Also, with all his swinging at bad pitches, his .257 batting average should improve as he learns better plate discipline.  Thus there certain appears to be upside.  That batting average shows that he's further along the learning curve than are Pederson who batted .210 and Souza who batted .225 last season.
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by Shooters Buffet on Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:52 am

    The idea that HACKERS learn plate discipline is a stretch.


    TANK VICIEDO comes to mind!!!

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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:20 am

    Shooters Buffet wrote:The idea that HACKERS learn plate discipline is a stretch.


    TANK VICIEDO comes to mind!!!

    And so does the 2014 version of Bryce Harper.

    And no, Bobby, I'm not saying that Avi Garcia is the next Bryce Harper.  So don't go there, even though I know that you probably want to. Wink


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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:20 am

    With all his swinging at bad pitches, his .257 batting average should improve as he learns better plate discipline.  There's upside.  That batting average shows that he's further along that learning curve than are Pederson who batted .210 and Souza who batted .225 last season.>>
    Garcia can't hold Joc Pederson's jock.  Pederson can field, run, hit for power and he knows how to recognize pitches.  He was on the All-Star team in his rookie year.  Pitchers found his weaknesses in the second half and pounded him with sliders.  And he wore down some from playing every game in the first half.  
    Jim Thome hit .205 in his rookie season, so a one-dimensional stat like Bat Avg. isn't a good marker for progress.  Pederson has to work on keeping his head on the ball longer and learn how to deal with high inside heat and the slider better.  But he has shown the baseball smarts to adjust. He isn't a dumbass like Garcia who can't recognize balls from strikes, gets caught stealing as often as he steals, is confounded by flyballs, and is a true liability on defense. Stupid is hard to correct.





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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:16 am

    rmapasad wrote: With all his swinging at bad pitches, his .257 batting average should improve as he learns better plate discipline.  There's upside.  That batting average shows that he's further along that learning curve than are Pederson who batted .210 and Souza who batted .225 last season.>>
    Garcia can't hold Joc Pederson's jock.  Pederson can field, run, hit for power and he knows how to recognize pitches.  He was on the All-Star team in his rookie year.  Pitchers found his weaknesses in the second half and pounded him with sliders.  And he wore down some from playing every game in the first half.  
    Jim Thome hit .205 in his rookie season, so a one-dimensional stat like Bat Avg. isn't a good marker for progress.  Pederson has to work on keeping his head on the ball longer and learn how to deal with high inside heat and the slider better.  But he has shown the baseball smarts to adjust. He isn't a dumbass like Garcia who can't recognize balls from strikes, gets caught stealing as often as he steals, is confounded by flyballs, and is a true liability on defense. Stupid is hard to correct.






    Oh boy, Roger!  I better learn never to question St. Joc again. ROFLMAO!

    Joc Pederson is not a finished product; and if he were smart enough to "recognize pitches", he wouldn't have struck out an astronomical 170 times last year.  And as far as his running game, if he were smart enough to get a good read on major league pitchers, he might have done better than 4 steals in 11 attempts.  (BTW, Avi Garcia had 7 steals in 14 attempts last season - not good, but still better than the "speedy" St. Joc.)  And what happened to St. Joc after his All-Star appearance last summer?  It was about as close to a total collapse as one could get with that sickening .178 batting average to go along with that .300 slugging percentage, which is extremely bad for a power hitter.  But don't fret, Roger, ESPN is projecting St. Joc to get his batting average all the way up to .228 this season.  With enough improvement, he may become the hitter that Adam Dunn was. Laughing

    And as far as stupidity goes, it doesn't seem to hurt Puig's play too much.
     lol!
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:33 am

    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    Shooters Buffet wrote:The idea that HACKERS learn plate discipline is a stretch.


    TANK VICIEDO comes to mind!!!

    And so does the 2014 version of Bryce Harper.

    And no, Bobby, I'm not saying that Avi Garcia is the next Bryce Harper.  So don't go there, even though I know that you probably want to. Wink
    Harper did take a jump in plate discipline last year by swinging at only 28% pitches out of the zone v. 33% the year before.  Garcia went from swinging at 42% pitches out of the zone in 2014 to 46% in 2015, third worst rate in the majors.  So at age 22 Harper got smarter and at age 23 Garcia got dumber.   Garcia's fielding has also gotten worse.  Where the "Average' RFer is catching a ball hit into a particular zone 75% of the time, Garcia is only doing it 50% of the time. 

    .  At least get this stiff out of the field and DH him.
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    Re: The Flyin' Hawaiian?

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:45 am

    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    rmapasad wrote: With all his swinging at bad pitches, his .257 batting average should improve as he learns better plate discipline.  There's upside.  That batting average shows that he's further along that learning curve than are Pederson who batted .210 and Souza who batted .225 last season.>>
    Garcia can't hold Joc Pederson's jock.  Pederson can field, run, hit for power and he knows how to recognize pitches.  He was on the All-Star team in his rookie year.  Pitchers found his weaknesses in the second half and pounded him with sliders.  And he wore down some from playing every game in the first half.  
    Jim Thome hit .205 in his rookie season, so a one-dimensional stat like Bat Avg. isn't a good marker for progress.  Pederson has to work on keeping his head on the ball longer and learn how to deal with high inside heat and the slider better.  But he has shown the baseball smarts to adjust. He isn't a dumbass like Garcia who can't recognize balls from strikes, gets caught stealing as often as he steals, is confounded by flyballs, and is a true liability on defense. Stupid is hard to correct.






    With enough improvement, he may become the hitter that Adam Dunn was. Laughing

    And as far as stupidity goes, it doesn't seem to hurt Puig's play too much.
     lol!

    I'd take Adam Dunn's offense when he  23-30 years old coupled with Pederson's defense.  That would be a pretty good player.   As to Puig, yeah he still overthrows the cutoff guy and makes blunders on the basepaths but he also gets to an incredible number of balls in RF.

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