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    Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Guest on Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:08 pm

    Sox already have them in Schuck,


    Actually, I wouldn't object to this guy getting a full chance to start. I suspect he might do fairly well.
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:51 am

    rmapasad wrote:
    MGJOHNSON wrote:I agree that Avi Garcia should get another year to prove himself.  He had a serious shoulder injury in 2014 in which he came back much quicker from surgery than almost anyone had suspected.  He may have not regained his full strength in 2015 and his defensive play might have been a little tentative due to the injury.  Also last season was his first full year in the majors.  The Sox have a lot more serious problems that need addressing than Garcia.

    A right fielder who puts up an 87 OPS+, and was one of the worst defensive RFers in the league IS a serious problem.  Garcia was almost as bad as Sox's 2b, 3b, DH, and Catcher. But as you point out, he's a stiff who's able to hide out among the other stiffs and Garcia LOOKS like more of a stud.  That he's a baseball dumbass has never seemed to bother the Sox.  It did bother the Tigers, who got rid of him at age 22, something clubs rarely do these days.  
    I'm still struggling to see the positives in Garcia that make him worth putting up with the obvious negatives like baserunning, defense, plate discipline.  Yeah, for brief segments of his career (200-300 abs) he's been able to hit over .300.  But then put him in the same league (both minors and majors) for a full season where pitchers can adjust to him, and he's been a .257 - .275 hitter with warning track power.   So I'd like to hear know what REASONABLE basis the Sox have for believing this guy (who was a clear D/D- this year) will amount to something besides the usual "he's still young, he was hurt, he needs a chance, etc"  ... Kark mentioned Sosa.  In his mid-20's, Sammy took off but we know the reason why.   If Garcia can get his OF buddy Melky to put him in touch with the right people, now that might be a reasonable basis for hope.
    EXCELLENT ANALYSIS.


    His injury was caused flopping around like a beached whale trying to catch the damned ball.


    HE DID THE SAME THING EARLIER IN THAT SAME GAME.


    His approach to batting is like TANK......swing at everything.


    HE IS A DAMNED PROBLEM.

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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:52 am

    rmapasad wrote:That said, Sharpy is correct in pointing out how the lack of bodies is keeping Garcia employe
     "He's all we got" doesn't hold much water, IMO.  Garcia set the bar so low (-1 WAR) that any one of dozens of bodies could step in. Sox already have them in Schuck, Thompson and JAson Coats.  Plus at least 20-30 low-level free agents that could easily be grabbed.   No team should settle for sub-replacement level performance.

    You should only keep Garcia if his skills point to him getting a lot better. But what skills does he have exactly ? Typical Sox logic is . "He's the incumbent, he's still only 25, we invested a lot in him, he deserves one more shot."   This exempts the club from actually EVALUATING the player. It's almost like "we don't really know whether he'll get better, all we can do is hope he does. What can we do - there wasn't anyone else". WHAT WEAK-ASS NONSENSE !!!!!!!!! It keeps the Sox shitty.  It keeps them trotting out the Beckhams, DeAzas, Flowers, Viciedos, Gillaspies for that last hurrah. It's like going to the track and constantly playing the 15-1 shots...One of these days, one of 'em will hit !!!



    1)  The White Sox do not have a suitable, in house replacement for Garcia IMO.
    2)  Your 20-30 low level free agents also come with risk.  At best, you get De Aza circa 2012.  Which means in 2018 you need another replacement, while not providing enough in 2016-17.
    3)  what is probably the best solution, at least for 2016-2018, is to spend on a big name and pray you don't have a Joey Belle/Adam Dunn type disaster
    4)  Sox brass, unfortunately, do not see Garcia or Flowers or Thompson or Micah Johnson as stiffs.  These fine youth athletes are the future because baseball can be taught.  Just ask HAWK
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:48 am

    tHe SicKo FANt wrote:

    1)  The White Sox do not have a suitable, in house replacement for Garcia IMO.


    Kark, a "suitable" replacement for Garcia and a "suitable RFer" are two different things.  A "suitable" replacement for Garcia would be anyone who wouldn't be a negative sinkhole like he was  (-1 WAR) and Thompson, Schuck or even a 25 yr old in Charlotte might be capable of that.  A suitable RFer would be a guy who could create a POSITIVE value of WAR +1 or more.  No, the Sox don't have that.   It doesn't follow that because the Sox can't find a positive value RFer that they have to hand the job back over to Garcia.
    The only reason to hand the job back to Garcia is if he has the qualities to become a positive value player. I have repeatedly asked WHAT ARE THOSE POSITIVE QUALITIES ?  Being 25 years and having a pulse is not enough.  Being able to hit .300 for 6 weeks isn't either.  His negative qualities which lead to negative value are very apparent - lousy defender, runs bases like a dunce, swings at everything.  When you balance the scales I don't see much hope for this guy.  So yes, he is VERY replaceable.
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:17 pm

    Get to a FANBOY Meeting.  Listen as to how LaRoche is COACHING Abreu at 1B!!!!


    Different languages, but what the Hell!!


    The fellows are all teaching each other....pulling together as a TEAM!!!


    ROTFLMFAO!!
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Cream1953 on Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:55 pm

    Listen as to how LaRoche is COACHING Abreu at 1B!!!!


    *************************************

    Abreu ought to be coaching LaRoche on how to hit a fucking baseball.
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by rmapasad on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:13 pm

    Get to a FANBOY Meeting.  Listen as to how LaRoche is COACHING Abreu at 1B!!!! >>
    Do just attend those to get material ? Smile
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:36 pm

    Most of those guys are fine.  A 
    few hours out for a BULLSHIT session.


    The fun begins when you start hearing FANBOY idiocy that you have not heard since the playground in 5th grade!!!


    I AM NOT KIDDING.
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by alohafri on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:37 pm

    Hawk Harrelson wrote:Most of those guys are fine.  A 
    few hours out for a BULLSHIT session.


    The fun begins when you start hearing FANBOY idiocy that you have not heard since the playground in 5th grade!!!


    I AM NOT KIDDING.
     
    Unless they leave to skip out on the bill.
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Hawk Harrelson on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:50 pm

    ROTFLMFAO!!!


    Plus you have to bring a DICTIONARY to look up the word TIP!!!


    That is why Shooters was the dump of choice!!


    NO TIPPING!!!!

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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Guest on Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:19 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    tHe SicKo FANt wrote:

    1)  The White Sox do not have a suitable, in house replacement for Garcia IMO.


    Kark, a "suitable" replacement for Garcia and a "suitable RFer" are two different things.  A "suitable" replacement for Garcia would be anyone who wouldn't be a negative sinkhole like he was  (-1 WAR) and Thompson, Schuck or even a 25 yr old in Charlotte might be capable of that.  A suitable RFer would be a guy who could create a POSITIVE value of WAR +1 or more.  No, the Sox don't have that.   It doesn't follow that because the Sox can't find a positive value RFer that they have to hand the job back over to Garcia.
    The only reason to hand the job back to Garcia is if he has the qualities to become a positive value player. I have repeatedly asked WHAT ARE THOSE POSITIVE QUALITIES ?  Being 25 years and having a pulse is not enough.  Being able to hit .300 for 6 weeks isn't either.  His negative qualities which lead to negative value are very apparent - lousy defender, runs bases like a dunce, swings at everything.  When you balance the scales I don't see much hope for this guy.  So yes, he is VERY replaceable.



    Roger, if you need a $100, it doesn't matter if you can turn a $5 bill into a $10 bill.  Which is kinda the message I am reading from you.

    As for Garcia's positive qualities, he is physically gifted and built like a greek god.  does that translate into a good ballplayer.  In Garcia's case, unlikely, but not unprecendented.  so unless the White Sox do my #1 choice which is to buy Heyward and Cepednsis and a few others that will double payroll in attempt to buy a championship,

    But if the choice is Garcia, or some Melkey Cabrera lite, I gamble on Garcia's upside.  going from a -1WAR to a +1WAR in RF doesn't make the white sox a winner.  Chasing 500 with Tori Hunter in RF and Garcia in Japan is not any better than Garcia play RF and listening to HAWK talk up his potential
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:38 am

    As for Garcia's positive qualities, he is physically gifted and built like a greek god.  does that translate into a good ballplayer.  In Garcia's case, unlikely, but not unprecendented.  so unless the White Sox do my #1 choice which is to buy Heyward and Cepednsis and a few others that will double payroll in attempt to buy a championship  >>
    At  6'4" - 240-250 lbs, Garcia might have made a fine linebacker.  Too bad for him they don't play that sport where he grew up.   Too bad for the Sox that they keep thinking guys like that will turn  into baseball players.  Fine - give him one last shot, because he's only 25 and sometimes the worm will turn. 
    But change the groundrules coming into spring training.  He's not the starting RFer anymore. He's not even guaranteed a spot on the 25 man.  He's gotta show he can play better defense, run bases better, and have at least some passing acquaintance with the strike zone.   He was garbage last year - second worst player to LaRoche.  He's had 1100 PA's in the majors, so time to shit or get off the pot.  He's got another 250 PA's tops.

    I realize that the Sox have 6 other problems to solve.  But it's easier to find corner OFers who can play above replacement than it is Catchers, SS's, 2bmen and 3bmen.  So RF should be an easier problem to fix with someone else.  That's why Garcia should be on very thin ice now.


     with a 693 OPS - that's barely 4th OFer stuff.

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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Guest on Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:19 am

    ANOTHER THING TO REMEMBER ROGER THAT THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WHAT THE SOX SHOULD DO AND WHAT THE SOX WILL DO.

    YES, GARCIA IN ALL LIKELIHOOD S/B REPLACED.  YES, YOU CAN PROBABLY RATTLE OFF 50 GUYS THAT ARE BETTER.

    HOWEVER, MY POINT IS, HOW MANY OF THE 50 ARE JUST MARGINALLY BETTER?  HOW MANY THAT ARE CLEARLY BETTER ARE SO OLD THEY ARE OLDER A 1 - 2 YEAR SOLUTION?

    I'D LOVE TO SEE TORI HUNTER OVER GARCIA, BUT DOES THAT REALLY MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

    SO YES, FINDING A GUY WITH A -0.9WAR OR BETTER TO REPLACE GARCIA SHOULD BE EASY.  BUT A SERIOUS, LONG TERM SOLUTION, WHICH MEANS EITHER MAJOR CASH OR MAJOR TRADE IS NOT SO EASY.

    THEREFORE, THE KARK STAND BY HIS POSITION THAT GARCIA IS CURRENTLY THE BEST IN HOUSE OPTION FOR RF AND SHOULD ONLY BE REPLACED WITH SOMEONE WHO COULD BE ONE OF THE LEAGUES BETTER RF'S FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO COME.  I.E. JASON HEYWARD
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:37 pm

    THEREFORE, THE KARK STAND BY HIS POSITION THAT GARCIA IS CURRENTLY THE BEST IN HOUSE OPTION FOR RF AND SHOULD ONLY BE REPLACED WITH SOMEONE WHO COULD BE ONE OF THE LEAGUES BETTER RF'S FOR SEVERAL YEARS TO COME.  I.E. JASON HEYWARD >>

    I agree it doesn't do a lot of good to just bandaid RF with someone marginally better.  You want a longterm solution.  But the real question is whether Garcia can be anything more than marginally better than his -1 WAR self of 2015 ?  If not, then farting around with him further is as useless as finding a temporary patch.  You don't need an All Star to replace -1 WAR.  League avg. would be a big improvement.
    To me, league average is almost a pipe dream for Garcia.  His defense is lousy, and pitchers will keep carving him up.  Carlos May is about all I ever see him becoming and  May was barely passable.  In the meantime, he inflicts Joe Borchard-like slings and arrows on the Sox while waiting for his inner Carlos May to emerge. 
    Here's the problem.   Because of playing time, Garcia has now qualified for Super Two status and is arb eligible.  Sox can't just give him $ 750 K like any other pre-arb guy. He'll be in line for $ 2.5 mil.
     There is no reason to invest more time and more serious money into someone whose talents for baseball are so minimal and who is so eminently replaceable.  I'd non-tender him and end this experiment.

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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Guest on Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:23 pm

    WELL ROGER,

    THE KARK WAS COMPLETELY UNAWARE HE WAS ARBITRATION ELIGIBLE.

    NOW THE KARK JUST HAS TWO WORDS FOR YA

    NON TENDER
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    Re: Is Avi Garcia a STIFF???

    Post by Soxillinirob on Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:56 pm

    Mark the CPA wrote:WELL ROGER,

    THE KARK WAS COMPLETELY UNAWARE HE WAS ARBITRATION ELIGIBLE.

    NOW THE KARK JUST HAS TWO WORDS FOR YA

    NON TENDER

    No shit.  Had no idea he was arb-elig.  Would like to see him around for one more year, but not for any kind of real money that can be spent elsewhere on someone that can post a positive WAR.

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