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    Dump DeAza next!!

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    Bobbyrosebowl
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    Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:11 am

    Fuckhead NOT a CF, too stupid to run the bases and starts hitting in June. Tries to match Oaf strikeout for strikeout.
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    Cream1953
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Cream1953 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:14 am

    We can always bring back Juan Pierre.  Very Happy

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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Guest on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:12 am

    [quote="Bobbyrosebowl"]Fuckhead NOT a CF, too stupid to run the bases and starts hitting in June.  Tries to match Oaf strikeout for strikeout. [/quote



    Adam Eaton is the solution to this problem.  D'Aza will either be released or is now the 4th outfielder. Agree, for a leadoff guy, strikeouts way to much ......(awaiting response of how strikeouts are no different than other outs)
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    Father of Satan
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Father of Satan on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:20 am

    Chi-kid wrote:
    Bobbyrosebowl wrote:Fuckhead NOT a CF, too stupid to run the bases and starts hitting in June.  Tries to match Oaf strikeout for strikeout. [/quote



    Adam Eaton is the solution to this problem.  D'Aza will either be released or is now the 4th outfielder. Agree, for a leadoff guy, strikeouts way to much ......(awaiting response of how strikeouts are no different than other outs)


    Strikeouts are better than other outs. There is very little chance for a double play. With this group of players, that is a plus!
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    Cream1953
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Cream1953 on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:25 am

    With this outfit, nobody gets on base anyway so there's no double play to hit into to begin with.
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    Father of Satan
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Father of Satan on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:51 am

    Cream1953 wrote:With this outfit, nobody gets on base anyway so there's no double play to hit into to begin with.

    Fie on you! It will be worse next year! You're welcome!
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    rmapasad
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:51 am

    Adam Eaton is the solution to this problem.  D'Aza will either be released or is now the 4th outfielder. Agree, for a leadoff guy, strikeouts way to much ......(awaiting response of how strikeouts are no different than other outs)  >>[/size]



    Not going to say that K's are "no different" than other outs.  They are obviously with no one on, and leadoff guys have nearly twice as many of their AB's with 0 on base v. any other hitter. So in one way K's aren't meaningful for them.
    But in another way, K's are very significant, because they depress Bat Avg... That's especially important for a guy like DeAza where 81% of his on-bases come from hits.   The only way a leadoff hitter can strike out a lot (and that usually means a sub .290 Bat Avg) and still get on base at a good clip is to be like Rickey Henderson and walk a ton. Only 69% of Rickey's on-bases came from hits.  Clearly DeAza ain't no Rickey. 
    Strikeouts are also important as indicators of a guy's pitch recognition, plate discipline and length of his swing.  With DeAza, the more HR's he's hit, the worse his plate discipline has gotten
    As 4th OFers go, however, DeAza is pretty decent.  He's got some pop, hits for enough Avg (270-ish) to be respectable, and is OK in the field.  Many contenders would be happy to have him in that role, but it doesn't make much sense for Sox to keep him for that purpose.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by jaywit on Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:05 pm

    rmapasad wrote:Adam Eaton is the solution to this problem.  D'Aza will either be released or is now the 4th outfielder. Agree, for a leadoff guy, strikeouts way to much ......(awaiting response of how strikeouts are no different than other outs)  >>[/size]



    Not going to say that K's are "no different" than other outs.  They are obviously with no one on, and leadoff guys have nearly twice as many of their AB's with 0 on base v. any other hitter. So in one way K's aren't meaningful for them.
    But in another way, K's are very significant, because they depress Bat Avg... That's especially important for a guy like DeAza where 81% of his on-bases come from hits.   The only way a leadoff hitter can strike out a lot (and that usually means a sub .290 Bat Avg) and still get on base at a good clip is to be like Rickey Henderson and walk a ton. Only 69% of Rickey's on-bases came from hits.  Clearly DeAza ain't no Rickey. 
    Strikeouts are also important as indicators of a guy's pitch recognition, plate discipline and length of his swing.  With DeAza, the more HR's he's hit, the worse his plate discipline has gotten
    As 4th OFers go, however, DeAza is pretty decent.  He's got some pop, hits for enough Avg (270-ish) to be respectable, and is OK in the field.  Many contenders would be happy to have him in that role, but it doesn't make much sense for Sox to keep him for that purpose.




    The other part of the strikeout vs other out argument is that a ball put in play demands far more of the fielders than a strikeout.  How many wild pitches/passed balls occur on strike 3 occur per game?  Contrast that with the number of errors per game on a batted ball.  Whether or not someone is on base, a batted ball has a far better chance for a positive outcome than strike 3.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:21 pm

    The other part of the strikeout vs other out argument is that a ball put in play demands far more of the fielders than a strikeout.  How many wild pitches/passed balls occur on strike 3 occur per game?  Contrast that with the number of errors per game on a batted ball.  Whether or not someone is on base, a batted ball has a far better chance for a positive outcome than strike 3. >>

    Jay, very true.  Errors occur on slightly more than 1 % of all balls in play but passed balls on strike 3 are as rare as hen's teeth (guess would be 1/10 of 1%).    
    But the typical debate is between those who say it's far better to commit a "productive out" than to K thus hitters who strikeout excessively hurt their team.  That is worth examining. .Let's break it down for an "average" AL hitter with 500 plate appearances.
    - 75 % or 375 come with 0 on base or 2 outs where a strikeout = same team result as any other out
    - 18% or  90 come with some runner on 1st less than 2 outs and the avg batter will make 60 outs.
    - 17 will be strikeouts
     - 18 will be non productive BIP outs (GB out runner at 2nd out/runner safe at 1st or popup or FB out)
     - 10 of those will result in a double play producing 10 extra outs.  
     - 15 will be productive outs where a runner advances and batter is out at 1st
        Some further math is needed though as an out costs a team .37 runs on avg. where advancing a   runner gains a team an average of .25 runs.  So the 10 extra outs from GIDP = -3.7 runs v. 3.75 runs gained from advancing a runner through productive outs..  A total wash.
    -  7 % or 25 PA's come with runners on 2nd, 2nd/3rd or 3rd with less than 2 outs.  Thiis where a strikeout hurts and a ball in play rarely turns into a DP.  The "avg" hitter will commit 17 outs in 25 PA's, 5 will be K's,  4 will be unproductive ball in play outs (popups, shallow flies, grounders where runners have to hold) and 8 will productive outs.  Of those 8 productive outs, 3 will be minimally productive (moving a runner from 2nd to 3rd with 1 out), 2 will score runs (because of % guys on 3rd) and 2 will help the runner at 2nd with 0 outs move to 3rd bettering his chance to score.
    Now let's take he high strikeout guy who instead of K'ing only 5 of those 25 PA's will K 7 or 8 times. Meaning he will probably have 2 fewer chances for "productive outs" than an avg hitter in those situations. 
    This is such a tiny  difference that the idea that a high K guy hurts his  team more than the avg. hitter who makes more  productive outs is basically a myth.. 
    All that said, strikeouts are still bad, because nothing good can come from them and the hitter and his team are deprived of the positives of putting the ball in play (30% chance of a hit plus 1% chance of error plus 4-5% chance of a productive out).  So when looking at young hitters who K too often, you really have to wonder whether they can hit above .250 and if they can't, their chances of helping your team aren't particularly good....
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Soxillinirob on Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:45 pm

    I try to just analyze it in retrospect.  If you like a hitter's production levels, then it probably doesn't matter how much they struck out in the process of amassing those numbers.  If you don't like a hitter's numbers, there's a good chance that his strikeouts played a negative role.  As long as the guy is productive to the degree you need for him to be, I don't see the point in worrying about how much he K's. 

    Take a typical Frank Thomas season during his prime.  If he had produced those Frank numbers while striking out 200 times, rather than 80, would it make his career any worse?
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:49 am

    What bullshit is this?

    Last I checked Frank Thomas did NOT strike out 200 times per season! Maybe that is why he was GREAT!
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by alohafri on Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:59 am

    Soxillinirob wrote:I try to just analyze it in retrospect.  If you like a hitter's production levels, then it probably doesn't matter how much they struck out in the process of amassing those numbers.  If you don't like a hitter's numbers, there's a good chance that his strikeouts played a negative role.  As long as the guy is productive to the degree you need for him to be, I don't see the point in worrying about how much he K's. 

    Take a typical Frank Thomas season during his prime.  If he had produced those Frank numbers while striking out 200 times, rather than 80, would it make his career any worse?

    Yes, because it would show that he didn't know the strike zone.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Father of Satan on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:01 am

    Soxillinirob wrote:I try to just analyze it in retrospect.  If you like a hitter's production levels, then it probably doesn't matter how much they struck out in the process of amassing those numbers.  If you don't like a hitter's numbers, there's a good chance that his strikeouts played a negative role.  As long as the guy is productive to the degree you need for him to be, I don't see the point in worrying about how much he K's. 

    Take a typical Frank Thomas season during his prime.  If he had produced those Frank numbers while striking out 200 times, rather than 80, would it make his career any worse?

    Fie on you! It is you who strikes out 200 times!
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:24 am

    Statheads have a screw loose.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Father of Satan on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:29 am

    Bobbyrosebowl wrote:Statheads have a screw loose.

    I created statheads to increase your blood pressure! You're welcome!
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:39 am

    Silly me, I just can't see an asshole who strikes out 200 times a season doing what he is supposed to do STATWISE.

    I'll let baseball wizards Dan Bernstein and Matt Spiegel figure it out.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:12 am

    Forgot to add the .200 Batting average for THE OAF!

    He has numbers STATHEADS can USE!!!!!

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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Cream1953 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:45 am

    Oaf wouldn't make a pimple on Frank Thomas' ass. Shame on you for even bringing him into the conversation Rob.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Soxillinirob on Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:54 am

    alohafri wrote:
    Soxillinirob wrote:I try to just analyze it in retrospect.  If you like a hitter's production levels, then it probably doesn't matter how much they struck out in the process of amassing those numbers.  If you don't like a hitter's numbers, there's a good chance that his strikeouts played a negative role.  As long as the guy is productive to the degree you need for him to be, I don't see the point in worrying about how much he K's. 

    Take a typical Frank Thomas season during his prime.  If he had produced those Frank numbers while striking out 200 times, rather than 80, would it make his career any worse?

    Yes, because it would show that he didn't know the strike zone.


    Not necessarily.  I assume the same production, meaning he had his usual 100+ walks, and all of the other goodies that come with it.  We're being hypothetical here, for he who wishes to get hysterical over baseball stats.  When you look back at a player's production, it's his PRODUCTION that really mattered.  His outs were outs.  Honestly, if Frank put up his same Hall of Fame numbers and ALL of his outs were K's, rather than flyouts or ground outs, I really wouldn't care.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Soxillinirob on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:10 am

    Cream1953 wrote:Oaf wouldn't make a pimple on Frank Thomas' ass. Shame on you for even bringing him into the conversation Rob.


    WTF are you nuts even talking about?  Oaf?  How did he enter the conversation?  This is a discussion on the value or lack thereof of strikeouts.  I'm not really even a stathead, but I'm good enough at math and reasoning to know that if a player is productive to the degree I want and need him to be, then I don't particularly care how he made his outs.  If Frank, or ANYONE, put up HOF HR,RBI,OBP statistics for the season, is that not good enough for us not to worry about whether he only struck out 10 times, 50, 100, 150 or 200?  If you or anyone else are going to ask me if I know that it's almost impossible to put up HOF numbers while striking out 200 times, then I'm going to say "yes....of course."  In case you haven't noticed, there are plenty of Hall of Fame hitters that often led their team in strikeouts.  This isn't stathead bullshit.  It's common sense.  Productivity and run production matters.  Outs are bad.  If you ask me if I want a power hitter that strikes out 200 times a year, I'm going to say NO FUCKING WAY, unless he is absolutely killing it when he manages to hit the ball.  Why is this so hard to follow?

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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Guest on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:15 am

    His outs were outs.  Honestly, if Frank put up his same Hall of Fame numbers and ALL of his outs were K's, rather than flyouts or ground outs, I really wouldn't care.






    Maybe I will look this up when I am not at work, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that the number of Hall of Famers who averaged more than 120 Ks per season is less than a handful.  I looked up Reggie Jackson, he had 149 (but some question if he should be an HOFer), Mantle was 115/year, Aaron was 68/yr, THomas 97  ...Still say it would be less than a handful and maybe less than 2 handfuls of over 100 Ks /yr. Maybe the fact they DON"T strike out much is why they are Hall of Famers?
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Soxillinirob on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:19 am

    Chi-kid wrote:His outs were outs.  Honestly, if Frank put up his same Hall of Fame numbers and ALL of his outs were K's, rather than flyouts or ground outs, I really wouldn't care.






    Maybe I will look this up when I am not at work, but I am going to go out on a limb and say that the number of Hall of Famers who averaged more than 120 Ks per season is less than a handful.  I looked up Reggie Jackson, he had 149 (but some question if he should be an HOFer), Mantle was 115/year, Aaron was 68/yr, THomas 97  ...Still say it would be less than a handful and maybe less than 2 handfuls of over 100 Ks /yr. Maybe the fact they DON"T strike out much is why they are Hall of Famers?



    Even if there are no others....take Reggie.  Why is he in the Hall if he struck out 149 times a season?  Kick his ass out.  He sucks.  He struck out too much.  Oh, wait.  You mean he was pretty good when he wasn't striking out?  Yeah, but what about all of those strikeouts?  Just think of how much better he'd have been if those were flyouts or ground outs or double plays. 
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Soxillinirob on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:40 am

    Understand that nobody is making the claim that K's are good, or that K's don't matter.  They matter to some degree.  Offensive production matters a hell of a lot more.  There is also nobody trying to argue that HOF production is easy to attain while striking out 150 or 200 times.  That's not the point.  MY point is only that if the production is there, K's don't matter.

    The following Hall of Famers led the league in strikeouts during their careers:
     Stargell once.
    Mantle 5 times
    Matthews once
    Greenberg once
    Rice once
    Jimmie Foxx 7 times (cut his ass!)
    Killebrew once
    Babe Ruth 5 times (release him)
    Reggie 5 times
    Schmidt 4 times

    There are more, but I didn't feel look looking any further.  Strikeouts are just fine as long as they are the byproduct of good or great production.
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Cream1953 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:44 am

    Oaf?  How did he enter the conversation? 

    **************************************************************************

    We have someone other than Oaf who strikes out 200 times a year??? It's ok Rob...you're so cute when you're angry and defensive!!  I love you
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    Re: Dump DeAza next!!

    Post by Soxillinirob on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:04 am

    Cream1953 wrote:Oaf?  How did he enter the conversation? 

    **************************************************************************

    We have someone other than Oaf who strikes out 200 times a year??? It's ok Rob...you're so cute when you're angry and defensive!!  I love you

    Seriously?  I guess I'm going to have to dial it up a little more often. 

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