Nomadsfest Sox Fans

A forum for the old AOL board Sox fans and others.


    Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Share

    frank bonifacic
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2470
    Join date : 2009-04-05

    Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by frank bonifacic on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:01 pm

    Nomads & the other followers of the minors:

    What's your take on Jacobs?
    22 y.o. but 5TH year in minors. 10th rounder in 2009 out of high school.
    Seems to have some power.
    avatar
    Nomads44
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 1688
    Join date : 2009-04-03
    Age : 69
    Location : Springfield

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Nomads44 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:10 pm

    frank bonifacic wrote:Nomads & the other followers of the minors:

    What's your take on Jacobs?
    22 y.o. but 5TH year in minors. 10th rounder in 2009 out of high school.
    Seems to have some power.
    Last year he was BBA's Red Sox #6... this year had dropped to #13.  Projected middle of the order power hitter with some speed.

    Only 22 - just got promoted to AA.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=jacobs001bra

    For Thornton, I'd think it is a coup even if he never becomes much.
    avatar
    Cream1953
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 6166
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 64
    Location : Elkhart, IN.

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Cream1953 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:50 pm

    Thornton gone? Good! One of the ones I wanted out of here the MOST. Don't let the door hit you in your big ass on the way out. You blew a lot of games for this team...in other words you SUCKED! I don't care if we got Betty White for him...he's gone and that's all that matters.

    winstonage
    Andy the Clown

    Posts : 750
    Join date : 2011-07-26

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by winstonage on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:11 am

    Cream1953 wrote:Thornton gone? Good! One of the ones I wanted out of here the MOST. Don't let the door hit you in your big ass on the way out. You blew a lot of games for this team...in other words you SUCKED! I don't care if we got Betty White for him...he's gone and that's all that matters.  

    Outfielder with power and speed who hasn't progressed.Sounds to familiar. On the other hand a typical lightning in a bottle scenario, which I am fine with considering Thornton didn't have much trade value.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2417
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:12 am

    winstonage wrote:
    Cream1953 wrote:Thornton gone? Good! One of the ones I wanted out of here the MOST. Don't let the door hit you in your big ass on the way out. You blew a lot of games for this team...in other words you SUCKED! I don't care if we got Betty White for him...he's gone and that's all that matters.  

    Outfielder with power and speed who hasn't progressed.Sounds to familiar. On the other hand a typical lightning in a bottle scenario, which I am fine with considering Thornton didn't have much trade value.

    I'm slightly more critical of this trade.  A 22 year old corner OFer that's struggling to hit .250 in high A ball and striking out 3 times more than he's walking does not look like a future major leaguer.  There's a reason guys like this are drafted in the 10th round.  To your point, his profile sounds all too familiar "In return comes Brandon Jacobs, a three-sport athlete in high school who turned down a football scholarship to Auburn to play baseball".  

    Sure, Thornton's trade value wasn't much. He's basically a guy who gets 1-2 LHed batters out in late innings - pretty narrow usefulness.   But contenders place some value on this kind of guy (look what LaRussa did with Rick Honeycut).    

    Point is that while all Thornton would yield is some minor leaguer who's a flyer, why make it the same kind of flyer that the Sox have been repeatedly taking and failing on with Danks, Mitchells, and Walkers of the world ?  Pick up a 19 or 20 year old with more baseball ability and possibly someone who can play an IF spot rather than these athletic types the scouts tend to fall in love with ?








      

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Guest on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:47 am

    Roger nails it, he basically wrote the adult version of what I would have wrote.

    And since you all secretly enjoy the KARK's childish antics, he is what Chicago's self proclaimed sabermetric genius thought after eyeballing jacobs career stats


    Low average, a lot of strike outs, doesn't walk enough, but has power and speed.  I wonder where he played football.


    BTW, the kid is also righthanded.  Aren't there any lefthanded hitter that played football?

    One other thing, the Sox threw in cash.  Rumor has it, its to pay for 1/2 of his million dollar option buy out this winter

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Guest on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:51 am

    One last thing, if all you are going to get are minor leaguers with a marginal chance at making the bigs, why not get a Sean lowe type?

    the Sean Lowes of the world have a better chance learning to throw strikes than the Jacobs of the world have learning to hit them.

    other than that, good job of dumping salary.  for a team like the sox, salary dumps can play an important role.  It doesn't take a CPA with a 135 IQ to understand that cash is king

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:28 am

    I'm basically happy about the trade, not overwelmingly so; but I see a number of pluses:

    1) Thornton and his contract are gone.  Matt Thornton is not a lousy pitcher, but his better days are likely behind him. On the backside of his career, he can still help a contender like Boston; but his presence with the White Sox just costs money.

    2) By opening up Thornton's spot in the bullpen, the White Sox get the chance to play "Will the real Donnie Veal please stand up!"  Veal, a former highly rated prospect with the Pirates before having Tommy John surgery a number of years ago, pitched extremely well in relief for the Sox last season only to fall completely on his face at the start of this season.  He's done well at AAA Charlotte this year, so it might have been just a temporary "dead-arm period" for him coming out of spring training.  So, in the next 3 months the Sox should get to find out "where's the beef" with Veal, and whether to pencil him in for a relief role in 2014 or bid him farewell.

    3) The Sox picked up a legit prospect in Brandon Jacobs.  Yeah, there are negatives: 4 years to get beyond A-ball, high strikeout rate, rather low batting average at most of his stops, relatively weak throwing arm.  But still, there are enough pluses here.  He has good speed; but more importantly, he has shown good power at a young age.  His power numbers are likely to increase as he gets older.  At 22, he's at the age where many of this year's draftees out of college are heading to Rookie League.  The odds of him making the majors are against him, but still he has a chance. There is definitely room for improvement, but he's not just a "roster filler" - not yet anyway.
    avatar
    Nomads44
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 1688
    Join date : 2009-04-03
    Age : 69
    Location : Springfield

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Nomads44 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:49 am

    MGJOHNSON wrote:I'm basically happy about the trade, not overwelmingly so; but I see a number of pluses:

    1) Thornton and his contract are gone.  Matt Thornton is not a lousy pitcher, but his better days are likely behind him. On the backside of his career, he can still help a contender like Boston; but his presence with the White Sox just costs money.

    2) By opening up Thornton's spot in the bullpen, the White Sox get the chance to play "Will the real Donnie Veal please stand up!"  Veal, a former highly rated prospect with the Pirates before having Tommy John surgery a number of years ago, pitched extremely well in relief for the Sox last season only to fall completely on his face at the start of this season.  He's done well at AAA Charlotte this year, so it might have been just a temporary "dead-arm period" for him coming out of spring training.  So, in the next 3 months the Sox should get to find out "where's the beef" with Veal, and whether to pencil him in for a relief role in 2014 or bid him farewell.

    3) The Sox picked up a legit prospect in Brandon Jacobs.  Yeah, there are negatives: 4 years to get beyond A-ball, high strikeout rate, rather low batting average at most of his stops, relatively weak throwing arm.  But still, there are enough pluses here.  He has good speed; but more importantly, he has shown good power at a young age.  His power numbers are likely to increase as he gets older.  At 22, he's at the age where many of this year's draftees out of college are heading to Rookie League.  The odds of him making the majors are against him, but still he has a chance. There is definitely room for improvement, but he's not just a "roster filler" - not yet anyway.

     4)  And he is really valuable in short-yardage situations.

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:19 am

    Nomads44 wrote: 4)  And he is really valuable in short-yardage situations.

    Jim, of course a guy who is a good overall athlete is a plus; but I do have a problem seeing time and again football players being obtained to play baseball.  You and I both know that it's a different skill set.  A guy who can run a good passing route may not necessarily be able to hit a 95 mph fastball.  One would have hoped that Kenny Williams would have realized that on the basis of his own career.  I believe that Rick Hahn is the one who pulled the trigger on this trade, but the Sox no doubt had "someone" scouting the Red Sox farm system and making recommendations as to whom the Sox should target.  Let's just hope that someone wasn't KW.
    avatar
    rmapasad
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 2417
    Join date : 2009-04-06
    Location : Northridge, CA

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by rmapasad on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:32 am

    MGJOHNSON wrote:I'm basically happy about the trade, not overwelmingly so; but I see a number of pluses:

    1) Thornton and his contract are gone.  Matt Thornton is not a lousy pitcher, but his better days are likely behind him. On the backside of his career, he can still help a contender like Boston; but his presence with the White Sox just costs money.

    2) By opening up Thornton's spot in the bullpen, the White Sox get the chance to play "Will the real Donnie Veal please stand up!"  Veal, a former highly rated prospect with the Pirates before having Tommy John surgery a number of years ago, pitched extremely well in relief for the Sox last season only to fall completely on his face at the start of this season.  He's done well at AAA Charlotte this year, so it might have been just a temporary "dead-arm period" for him coming out of spring training.  So, in the next 3 months the Sox should get to find out "where's the beef" with Veal, and whether to pencil him in for a relief role in 2014 or bid him farewell.

    3) The Sox picked up a legit prospect in Brandon Jacobs.  Yeah, there are negatives: 4 years to get beyond A-ball, high strikeout rate, rather low batting average at most of his stops, relatively weak throwing arm.  But still, there are enough pluses here.  He has good speed; but more importantly, he has shown good power at a young age.  His power numbers are likely to increase as he gets older.  At 22, he's at the age where many of this year's draftees out of college are heading to Rookie League.  The odds of him making the majors are against him, but still he has a chance. There is definitely room for improvement, but he's not just a "roster filler" - not yet anyway.

    Absolutely on first two counts - Sox had to trade Thornton to free up money and a roster spot.  And Thornton wasn't going to draw a grade A prospect by any means.   Question is whether they could have gone a different direction than the guy they got.   Was looking down the Red Sox org chart to see about 20-22 yr old IFers.. Red Sox are loaded at 3b (Middlebrooks, Cecchini) SS (Drew, Boeggerts) and 2b (Pedroia) for the future.  So they have some blocked guys at those spots.  Several names jumped out :  Mike Almanzar a 22 yr old 3bman who's hitting .270 with 11 HR's in  AA ball - he hit .300 in High A last year...  Deven Marrero, speedy 22 yr old SS hitting .267 in high A this year.  
    Maybe the Sox asked for these guys and were told "no", but either one of them, especially Almanzar, makes more sense than Jacobs, IMO.  I suspect that the way Sox scouts have repeatedly pushed the "athletes with great potential", despite the holes in their game, they may have convinced Hahn to take Jacobs rather than trying to figure a way to get Almanzar (e.g, offer to pay more of Thornton's salary).  Newer GMs often tend to follow his scouts' advice more than seasoned GM's do.

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:23 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    MGJOHNSON wrote:I'm basically happy about the trade, not overwelmingly so; but I see a number of pluses:

    1) Thornton and his contract are gone.  Matt Thornton is not a lousy pitcher, but his better days are likely behind him. On the backside of his career, he can still help a contender like Boston; but his presence with the White Sox just costs money.

    2) By opening up Thornton's spot in the bullpen, the White Sox get the chance to play "Will the real Donnie Veal please stand up!"  Veal, a former highly rated prospect with the Pirates before having Tommy John surgery a number of years ago, pitched extremely well in relief for the Sox last season only to fall completely on his face at the start of this season.  He's done well at AAA Charlotte this year, so it might have been just a temporary "dead-arm period" for him coming out of spring training.  So, in the next 3 months the Sox should get to find out "where's the beef" with Veal, and whether to pencil him in for a relief role in 2014 or bid him farewell.

    3) The Sox picked up a legit prospect in Brandon Jacobs.  Yeah, there are negatives: 4 years to get beyond A-ball, high strikeout rate, rather low batting average at most of his stops, relatively weak throwing arm.  But still, there are enough pluses here.  He has good speed; but more importantly, he has shown good power at a young age.  His power numbers are likely to increase as he gets older.  At 22, he's at the age where many of this year's draftees out of college are heading to Rookie League.  The odds of him making the majors are against him, but still he has a chance. There is definitely room for improvement, but he's not just a "roster filler" - not yet anyway.

    Absolutely on first two counts - Sox had to trade Thornton to free up money and a roster spot.  And Thornton wasn't going to draw a grade A prospect by any means.   Question is whether they could have gone a different direction than the guy they got.   Was looking down the Red Sox org chart to see about 20-22 yr old IFers.. Red Sox are loaded at 3b (Middlebrooks, Cecchini) SS (Drew, Boeggerts) and 2b (Pedroia) for the future.  So they have some blocked guys at those spots.  Several names jumped out :  Mike Almanzar a 22 yr old 3bman who's hitting .270 with 11 HR's in  AA ball - he hit .300 in High A last year...  Deven Marrero, speedy 22 yr old SS hitting .267 in high A this year.  
    Maybe the Sox asked for these guys and were told "no", but either one of them, especially Almanzar, makes more sense than Jacobs, IMO.  I suspect that the way Sox scouts have repeatedly pushed the "athletes with great potential", despite the holes in their game, they may have convinced Hahn to take Jacobs rather than trying to figure a way to get Almanzar (e.g, offer to pay more of Thornton's salary).  Newer GMs often tend to follow his scouts' advice more than seasoned GM's do.

    I agree with you, Roger, although I believe that it was Kenny Williams and not the scouts per se who put such a high premium on multi-sports types, especially ex-football players.  That's why I get the sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that it was KW, now as a scout, who may have recommended Jacobs to Hahn over perhaps a better possible prospect.

    However, as you mentioned, the Sox may not have been able to get anyone better from Boston than Jacobs without sweetening the pie.  After all, we're talking about trading old Matt Thornton here and not Mariano Rivera in his prime. Hahn may have gotten all that he could under the circumstances. 
    avatar
    TeleFrank
    Silent Hot Dog Vendor

    Posts : 1045
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Portage Park

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by TeleFrank on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:39 pm

    Just wondering now. How long before many of you stop working Kenny Williams lurking in the background of EVERY Sox decision? Isn't that spot in the dark Reinsdorf's?


    As for the trade. Not a big Thornton fan. A prospect from Boston Yah ! I'm sure I'll be reading how he's yet another waste of flesh in a Sox uniform soon, so it's SOS here.

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:51 pm

    TeleFrank wrote:Just wondering now. How long before many of you stop working Kenny Williams lurking in the background of EVERY Sox decision?

    Frank, as long as I have nightmares about G.W. Bush whispering into Obama's ear... affraid  (Oops, wrong board!)
    avatar
    Cream1953
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 6166
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Age : 64
    Location : Elkhart, IN.

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Cream1953 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:58 pm

    I'm going to really miss the obligatory late-inning home run that became Thornton's calling card. I think Thornton and the much-missed Scott Linebrink worked long hours together to perfect this approach to late-inning pitching.

    winstonage
    Andy the Clown

    Posts : 750
    Join date : 2011-07-26

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by winstonage on Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:46 pm

    Cream1953 wrote:I'm going to really miss the obligatory late-inning home run that became Thornton's calling card. I think Thornton and the much-missed Scott Linebrink worked long hours together to perfect this approach to late-inning pitching.

     For the last 2 years, he hasn't been able to get righties out. Lefties are hitting under 200 against him. He should have been used as lefty specialist, which is probably what the Red Sox will do.
    avatar
    Bobbyrosebowl
    Roof Shot

    Posts : 1926
    Join date : 2011-07-27
    Location : Bacardi Club

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:34 pm

    Cooper and Ventura not too bright????

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:41 pm

    A few months ago when Baseball America came out with their 2013 Prospect Handbook, they had Josh Phegley rated way down at #18 in the White Sox sorry-ass farm system while rating Brandon Jacobs (whom many evidently feel is not worthy to hold Matt Thornton's undersized jock) at #13 in Boston's farm system!  Oh, the fluidity of it all! It runs like diarrhea! Rolling Eyes

    In short, when you're dealing with prospects, it often is a crap shoot. Today's hero can be tomorrow's dud and vice versa...

    truefan
    Kenny's Draft Choice

    Posts : 58
    Join date : 2013-06-30

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by truefan on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:05 pm

    I think the new young man deserves a chance. You never know how it might turn out. It became pretty clear that Matt wore out his welcome in Chicago. Unlike some others on here I wish him all the best in Boston.

    MGJOHNSON
    Chairman Reinsdorf

    Posts : 4295
    Join date : 2009-04-05
    Location : Area 51

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:43 pm

    truefan wrote:I think the new young man deserves a chance. You never know how it might turn out. It became pretty clear that Matt wore out his welcome in Chicago. Unlike some others on here I wish him all the best in Boston.

    I doubt if any of us wish Matt Thornton bad.  We're just glad to see him go. If he does well for Boston, that's bad news for the Yankees - and that's good...  

    Brandon Jacobs will have a chance.  Maybe now with a new organization, no longer feeling the pressure to justify a $750,000 signing bonus, might make a difference for him.  Who knows?  "The past is history and tomorrow is a mystery."

    Guest
    Guest

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Guest on Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:14 pm

    MGJOHNSON wrote:
    TeleFrank wrote:Just wondering now. How long before many of you stop working Kenny Williams lurking in the background of EVERY Sox decision?

    Frank, as long as I have nightmares about G.W. Bush whispering into Obama's ear... affraid  (Oops, wrong board!)


    We have a gay presidential fantasies board?!?!?!?!?

    Suddenly Sarah Palin's stock is risng

    Sponsored content

    Re: Thorton- Jacobs Trade

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:10 pm