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    Crain in demand

    Post by Guest on Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:33 am

    Supposedly Jessie Crain is on a lot of short lists of contending teams that are always looking for bullpen help.

    I would hope Thorton would be as well.


    Not sure what they bring, but maybe Thorton is worth a guy having a sophomore slump.  Plenty of precident for these guys turning it around.  Sammy Sosa and Mike Cameron immediately come to mind.  And we all know how the Sox have a sweet spot in their hearts for athletic OF's with low averages and high K rates as long as the speed and power potential is there....
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:40 pm

    Supposedly Jessie Crain is on a lot of short lists of contending teams that are always looking for bullpen help.  I would hope Thorton would be as well. Not sure what they bring, but maybe Thorton is worth a guy having a sophomore slump.  Plenty of precident for these guys turning it around.  Sammy Sosa and Mike Cameron immediately come to mind.  And we all know how the Sox have a sweet spot in their hearts for athletic OF's with low averages and high K rates as long as the speed and power potential is there....>>
    That's right - sometimes teams can steal a younger hitter who's disappointed his current team. One classic example I recall is Indians trading Brian Giles for a LHed relief specialist (Ricardo Rincon).  More recently the Orioles got Chris Davis from Rangers for a middle reliever, so it can happen.

    But those examples are rare, Kark.  The "normal" return for a middle reliever traded at the deadline is basically nada - some longshot prospect with slim hopes of ever making it.   Look who the White Sox had to give up to get Brett Meyers (who was actually Houston's closer last year) - a couple of whooz-thats. Or who the Sox got when they traded away Sergio Santos (Nestor Molina) - a guy who has a 5.87 ERA in AA this year.

    Crain may have some value because he's been lights out this year.  But he's also owed some money and Sox may end up basically giving him away to save the $ 2 mil on rest of his salary this year.   Ditto Thornton who's got $ 3.5 mil left on his contract. 

    IMO, Rios and Ramirez are about the best trade bait the Sox have now that Peavy went down.
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:24 pm

    OUR COACH was a HUGE fan of Sergio Santos!!!!!

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Guest on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:11 pm

    Roger, I can't see for the life of me that Crain's remaining contract as a hinderance to him getting traded. Considering how pitching is always in demand I doubt they'll be begging to give him away.

    But back to my point. Are there any sophomore slumpers that might be made available?
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Nomads44 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:20 pm

    THE KARK wrote:Roger, I can't see for the life of me that Crain's remaining contract as a hinderance to him getting traded.  Considering how pitching is always in demand I doubt they'll be begging to give him away.  

    But back to my point.  Are there any sophomore slumpers that might be made available?


    How about Paco Rodriguez from the Dodgers?  Luke Gregerson from the Padres?  Almost any of the hot group of Cardinal kids?  Carlos Martinez? John Gast, Michael Blazek, Joe Kelly, Trevor Rosenthal, Kevin Siegrist?  I'm sure Wacha is off limits, but I wonder if Crain could get two of these?  Sox might have to add something to get Martinez, and he may be off limits as well.

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by winstonage on Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:03 am

    rmapasad wrote:Supposedly Jessie Crain is on a lot of short lists of contending teams that are always looking for bullpen help.  I would hope Thorton would be as well. Not sure what they bring, but maybe Thorton is worth a guy having a sophomore slump.  Plenty of precident for these guys turning it around.  Sammy Sosa and Mike Cameron immediately come to mind.  And we all know how the Sox have a sweet spot in their hearts for athletic OF's with low averages and high K rates as long as the speed and power potential is there....>>
    That's right - sometimes teams can steal a younger hitter who's disappointed his current team. One classic example I recall is Indians trading Brian Giles for a LHed relief specialist (Ricardo Rincon).  More recently the Orioles got Chris Davis from Rangers for a middle reliever, so it can happen.

    But those examples are rare, Kark.  The "normal" return for a middle reliever traded at the deadline is basically nada - some longshot prospect with slim hopes of ever making it.   Look who the White Sox had to give up to get Brett Meyers (who was actually Houston's closer last year) - a couple of whooz-thats. Or who the Sox got when they traded away Sergio Santos (Nestor Molina) - a guy who has a 5.87 ERA in AA this year.

    Crain may have some value because he's been lights out this year.  But he's also owed some money and Sox may end up basically giving him away to save the $ 2 mil on rest of his salary this year.   Ditto Thornton who's got $ 3.5 mil left on his contract. 

    IMO, Rios and Ramirez are about the best trade bait the Sox have now that Peavy went down.

    Roger, Myers lost value because he had a $12 million dollar vesting option based on appearences, which I think is the reason they never used him to close instead of throwing Reed in there. I think Crain has more value, and $2 mil owed is nothing. Hopefullu they can find a match with a team with a deep farm system, and get back a top 10 prospect.

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Guest on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:20 am

    Make that top 10 prospect a hitter. Part of the farm problem is the over emphasis on pitching. Thinking that they will be so loaded with pitching, they can trade for anybody else. The Sox need. Superstar hitter, and the best way is to grow one off the farm
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:12 pm

    Nomads44 wrote:
    THE KARK wrote:Roger, I can't see for the life of me that Crain's remaining contract as a hinderance to him getting traded.  Considering how pitching is always in demand I doubt they'll be begging to give him away.  

    But back to my point.  Are there any sophomore slumpers that might be made available?


    How about Paco Rodriguez from the Dodgers?  Luke Gregerson from the Padres?  Almost any of the hot group of Cardinal kids?  Carlos Martinez? John Gast, Michael Blazek, Joe Kelly, Trevor Rosenthal, Kevin Siegrist?  I'm sure Wacha is off limits, but I wonder if Crain could get two of these?  Sox might have to add something to get Martinez, and he may be off limits as well.


    Jim, Paco is doing as effective a job as Crain, is 9 years younger and a lot cheaper. Granted, Dodgers' GM Colletti has a fondness of veterans and an open checkbook, so unfortunately from an LA perspective, it's not totally far-fetched.  But Dodgers aren't serious contenders at this point, and I sorta doubt that Colletti's bosses would let him trade away 22 year olds with electric arms.

    As to Martinez and Rosenthal wouldn't you think they're offlimits unless somebody would be trading a real impact player ? Kelly, Blazek and Siegrist who are also relievers might be worth exploring . Cards' bullpen could use a solid 8th inning guy like Crain but IMO, one of those three guys is about the top end of what Cards would be willing to give up for Crain. Gast, who's basically a 5th starter, might be do-able but Sox might want someone with a more electric arm if possible.
    Another angle might be to look at guys who are blocked in the minors who may become another Matt Carpenter.  Someone like Mike O'Neill could fit that bill.  Or Matt Davidson of the D-BAcks.

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:16 pm

    Roger, I can't see for the life of me that Crain's remaining contract as a hinderance to him getting traded. Considering how pitching is always in demand I doubt they'll be begging to give him away.
    But back to my point. Are there any sophomore slumpers that might be made available?  >>

    Granted, Kark, some club having to fork over $ 2 million for the rest of Crain's salary might not be a serious hindrance to getting him traded but IMO it might have some effect on what prospect the Sox can get back for him in return.  
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:24 pm

    Roger, Myers lost value because he had a $12 million dollar vesting option based on appearences, which I think is the reason they never used him to close instead of throwing Reed in there. I think Crain has more value, and $2 mil owed is nothing. Hopefullu they can find a match with a team with a deep farm system, and get back a top 10 prospect.>>
    Agree - Crain does have some value for a contender that feels they need a solid 8th inning guy.  Sox may get lucky and find a GM who overvalues middle relievers and is willing to give up a good prospect and pay rest of Crain's salary this year (sure, it's not a lot of $$ in absolute terms, but Crain is reasonably well paid for a setup guy).  IMO, aside from lucking into a dumbass or desperate GM, the normal trade return for a good middle reliever like Crain is a longer-shot or blocked prospect but not a blue-chipper.  Again, look at who the Sox got for Santos who was a young Closer  
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by chisoxkid on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:06 pm

    rmapasad wrote:Roger, Myers lost value because he had a $12 million dollar vesting option based on appearences, which I think is the reason they never used him to close instead of throwing Reed in there. I think Crain has more value, and $2 mil owed is nothing. Hopefullu they can find a match with a team with a deep farm system, and get back a top 10 prospect.>>
    Agree - Crain does have some value for a contender that feels they need a solid 8th inning guy.  Sox may get lucky and find a GM who overvalues middle relievers and is willing to give up a good prospect and pay rest of Crain's salary this year (sure, it's not a lot of $$ in absolute terms, but Crain is reasonably well paid for a setup guy).  IMO, aside from lucking into a dumbass or desperate GM, the normal trade return for a good middle reliever like Crain is a longer-shot or blocked prospect but not a blue-chipper.  Again, look at who the Sox got for Santos who was a young Closer  
    I still don't understand that Santos deal.  He's had injury problems since the trade, but at the time he was a young, cheap, cost controlled arm that looked like he could have a bright future... I'd like to think that trade had more to do with Kenny being a moron than the true measure of the going rate for the player Santos appeared to be.  Maybe a combination of Kenny being a bad GM and my over-valuing of a player that was in Santos' position?  Or maybe just completely over-valuing Santos on my part... who knows.  Either way, I think you're right about Crain... I'm keeping my expectations pretty low on the return they get for him.
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Nomads44 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:36 pm

    rmapasad wrote:
    Jim, Paco is doing as effective a job as Crain, is 9 years younger and a lot cheaper. Granted, Dodgers' GM Colletti has a fondness of veterans and an open checkbook, so unfortunately from an LA perspective, it's not totally far-fetched.  But Dodgers aren't serious contenders at this point, and I sorta doubt that Colletti's bosses would let him trade away 22 year olds with electric arms.

    As to Martinez and Rosenthal wouldn't you think they're offlimits unless somebody would be trading a real impact player ? Kelly, Blazek and Siegrist who are also relievers might be worth exploring . Cards' bullpen could use a solid 8th inning guy like Crain but IMO, one of those three guys is about the top end of what Cards would be willing to give up for Crain. Gast, who's basically a 5th starter, might be do-able but Sox might want someone with a more electric arm if possible.
    Another angle might be to look at guys who are blocked in the minors who may become another Matt Carpenter.  Someone like Mike O'Neill could fit that bill.  Or Matt Davidson of the D-BAcks.

    I agree that most of the Cardinals would be hard to get.  Kolten Wong is one of their top prospects that is blocked now by the amazing season of Matt Carpenter.  But it would surely take far more than Crain to get him.

    Don't know much about O'Neill, but I'd think Davidson would also be hard to get for Crain alone.  BBAmerica had Davidson as the 88th ranked prospect across all teams and Arizona's #4.

    I'm not optimistic about them getting much of anything for him, so I am hoping whatever they get for any of their players will be a pleasant surprise.  Just so he doesn't pull the KW thing of always giving away our best of whatever we do have and feeling obligated to add a throw in to every deal.



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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:45 pm

    I still don't understand that Santos deal.  He's had injury problems since the trade, but at the time he was a young, cheap, cost controlled arm that looked like he could have a bright future... I'd like to think that trade had more to do with Kenny being a moron than the true measure of the going rate for the player Santos appeared to be.  Maybe a combination of Kenny being a bad GM and my over-valuing of a player that was in Santos' position?  Or maybe just completely over-valuing Santos on my part... who knows.  Either way, I think you're right about Crain... I'm keeping my expectations pretty low on the return they get for him.  >>
    I think the oddity of the Santos deal was that there seemed to be no compelling reason for the Sox to trade him (for the very reasons you stated).  As such, the natural thing to expect is that you better get a good offer if you do trade him, and so far Molina has been a bust.
    I recall Kenny saying at the time that a starting pitcher is more valuable than a closer.  There's something to that, but by his logic an established closer won't command an established starting pitcher and so the Sox had to settle for a prospect pitcher.  In which case, you hope that the prospect has some real potential.  Molina was a crap shoot in that he had just been converted to a starter, but he had put up some eye-popping numbers in A and AA ball in 2011.  If Molina had fulfilled that potential it might have been a good return for the Sox.  But this is basically what you get for a Reliever - someone that has question marks but promise.  So far this has been kinda of a lose-lose for both teams as they both have been in the tank ever since the trade.
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Cream1953 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:12 pm

    I loved the Santos deal because it broke Kark's heart and caused him to piss and moan for an entire off-season. Well worth it as fas as I was concerned. Very Happy

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Guest on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:17 am

    The only logic to the Santos deal is that those on the inside knew he was hurt. And didn't Molina's arm fall off as well that summer?

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Guest on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:24 am

    Anybody remember Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell?????

    BTW, you people need to remember that there are more than two classes of plyers. Just because a kid isn't considered blue chip doesn't make him a crapshoot. People here rip on Mike Cameron, but look at his career and tell me that is not a good player. Maybe not alll star good, but good enough.
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Nomads44 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:28 am

    THE KARK wrote:The only logic to the Santos deal is that those on the inside knew he was hurt.  And didn't Molina's arm fall off as well that summer?


    Sirotka/Wells Part II.
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:46 am

    THE KARK wrote:Anybody remember Larry Anderson for Jeff Bagwell?????

    BTW, you people need to remember that there are more than two classes of plyers.  Just because a kid isn't considered blue chip doesn't make him a crapshoot.  People here rip on Mike Cameron, but look at his career and tell me that is not a good player.  Maybe not alll star good, but good enough.  

    Agree with the general principle that young guys not getting proper respect from their current clubs represent opportunity. But GM's who get a brainfart or are clueless enough to trade a promising young hitter for a reliever (like Anderson/Bagwell, Giles/Rincon, etc) are few and far between.  More often the "promising young player" who's traded for a reliever turns out to be Willie Mota. That shouldn't stop Hahn from peddling Crain though.  There is no future in keeping him on the Sox, and so after exploring the market fully to see whether he can pilfer the next Bagwell from someone, he should be willing to settle for a prospect that at least might be a younger, cheaper Jesse Crain (like the guys Nomads mentioned on the Cardinals).

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Guest on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:15 pm

    So any disrespected young guys out there?  Or any sophomore slumpers that might being wearing out there welcome?

    I really don't want to see the Sox go after pitching.  This club has been trying to hoard pitching for as long I can remember.  And this team makes the playoffs about as often as Mr Spock gets laid.  Maybe it time to start hoarding hitters.  then worry about pitching when they actually have a lineup worth a damn
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Bobbyrosebowl on Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:00 pm

    I will give Hahn a chnce to prove he looks at this pile of crap with realism.
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by rmapasad on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:34 pm

    BobbyrosebowlI will give Hahn a chnce to prove he looks at this pile of crap with realism.

    That's what it will take.   There is no easy fix in sight either.  Sox have only 5 regulars who will be younger than 28 next year (Beckham, Viciedo, Sale, Quintana and Reed) and they still have $ 70 million in payroll committed to Dunn, Peavy, Rios, Ramirez, Keppinger and Danks...

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:11 am

    He gone --- to the Rays for "futher consideration". I hope that doesn't mean that the Rays will send the Sox an invoice at the end of the season... If Crain does half-way decent, maybe the Sox will get a bag of balls. It would be nice if the Rays would have David Price sign them...
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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by Cream1953 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:19 am

    If you rated all of the problems the Sox have on a scale of one to ten, Craine would be about a 3. Not sorry to see him go but he certainly wasn't one of the members of my most "hated" Sox club I want to see GONE. Only one of those have been sent elsewhere so far....Mr. Thornton.

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by truefan on Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:49 am

    I thought Jesse did a marvelous job with the White Sox and am sorry to see him go.

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    Re: Crain in demand

    Post by MGJOHNSON on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:23 am

    truefan wrote:I thought Jesse did a marvelous job with the White Sox and am sorry to see him go.

    Crain is usually a very good relief pitcher when he's healthy. I just don't see him as an intregal part of the Sox future. If the Sox can save some money and maybe get a decent prospect out of the deal, that's fine with me.

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